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Comment by hirvi74

3 days ago

How vehemently are we talking? Perhaps it's all subjective, but Israel doesn't seem to be fighting back too hard. Besides, all they have to do is just respond with PR, which isn't exactly taxing nor difficult.

> US and EU leaders wouldnt be going out of their way to downplay this.

Again, theatrics.

> It makes a difference becausr undermines US and European moral legitimacy.

To whom? Neither care about the opinions of 3rd world countries. The countries that matter do not mind, and the countries that mind do not matter.

How is Ukraine a military disaster? The US and Europe have been trying to tip-toe the line, but it's not like the US nor Europe has lost much of value -- excluding poor Ukraine obviously.

I do not think the West is showing weakness, but rather restraint.

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hirvi74

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pydry  3 days ago

>How vehemently are we talking?

Equal to the amount Israel spends on PR, lobbying and astroturfing to try and downplay this. Which is a ginormous amount.

>To whom?

All of the world that isnt in a western, Chinese or Russian club.

This group is routinely ignored, taken for granted and generally treated with disdain and so far that hasnt backfired too badly.

>How is Ukraine a military disaster?

They've thrown billions of weapons and drastically drained their inventories, achieving nothing except slowing Putin down after jubilantly declaring that he would be soundly defeated on the battlefield. It's transitioned the west's image from that of an unchallenged global hegemon to something of a military paper tiger. This has already resulted in a number of countries transitioning out of the western sphere of influence.

  • Sabinus  3 days ago

    >It's transitioned the west's image from that of an unchallenged global hegemon to something of a military paper tiger. This has already resulted in a number of countries transitioning out of the western sphere of influence.

    Interesting. I drew the opposite conclusion. Using (mostly) just NATO's old equipment, Ukraine has fought basically to a standstill what was previously considered the second greatest army on earth. That army and the security guarantees it provides to various dictators are greatly humiliated, especially after Russian allies Armenia and Syria were defeated with their backer Russia lifting hardly a finger in defense, due to it's great commitments and losses in Ukraine.

    Meanwhile the US is still ready to fight and win a war in the Pacific and Atlantic simultaneously.

    Which countries are transitioning out of the western sphere of influence due to security concerns?

    • pydry  3 days ago

      >Interesting. I drew the opposite conclusion. Using (mostly) just NATO's old equipment

      Not true since 2023. Plenty of the high end stuff was sent - abrams, leopard 2s, patriots.

      There's also a dire shortage of shells to send - the meat and potatoes of a war like this.

      Some of the high end stuff (e.g. F-35s) were also arguably not sent because western military planners were afraid of them performing badly (F-16s performed very badly).

      >fought basically to a standstill

      That's how wars of attrition are. The front line is 1) static for months/year and a half. Then it moves 2) slowly. Then 3) fast. Then collapse.

      It's between 2 and 3 now.

      Unless a peace deal is secured (unlikely, there is no zone of possible agreement) a Ukrainian military collapse is coming and it will be a humiliation for western hegemony to see Russia sweep forward unchallenged on their front door.

      Trump seems to know that it's coming and wants to wash his hands of it while European establishment are freaking out and doing stupid, rash and even Putinesque shit like canceling the Romanian election.

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