Comment by daft_pink
11 hours ago
It’s totally insane that China can ban all American social networks on security concerns and ban all kinds of just basic speech on their apps, but banning a Chinese social network is so controversial.
11 hours ago
It’s totally insane that China can ban all American social networks on security concerns and ban all kinds of just basic speech on their apps, but banning a Chinese social network is so controversial.
China doesn't claim that free speech and personal freedom are part of their core values
"tit for tat" is a rational act after getting burned for cooperating. You start open and cooperative, expect reciprocity, and when you don't get it you finally retaliate. A bad faith actor might even accuse you of not living up to your core values in order to persuade you into continuing to play the losing strategy.
The youngest tiktokers weren't even born yet or were just infants/toddlers when Google first got banned there. They may not understand what's going on here because by the time they came of age nearly all major western social media sites were already blocked there and for them it's status quo now. From their point of view the US is being the censor. They are at prime age to go on red book out of spite, but I hope they'll eventually understand.
Sure but what would that have to do with this action here?
TikTok isn’t being banned because of free speech or not but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues. China has recognized this as a threat and as such has banned foreign adversary social media companies from operating within its borders.
Likewise the United States has recognized that this is a serious threat as well and has sought to do the same.
Both countries claim to want to defend their systems of governments so it stands to reason they are just taking reciprocal actions here.
The “free speech” angle is just Chinese propaganda. We stop businesses from operating in the United States all the time and sanction companies and stop them from doing business within our financial network all the time. TikTok is just some random company and we can stop it from doing business here. Free speech isn’t a meaningful discussion point here.
The US also has an enshrined freedom of association, and I personally believe the association rights of those users is being violated.
Moreover it seems like security theater.
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> the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues.
Which, if true, means that the US has been influencing the rest of the world for the past 20 years through all the other social networks.
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At least I hope this drives the EU to ban the use of X in their territory for the same reasons as the TikTok ban in the US. The owner is part of the incoming regime, and has been explicit about wanting to influence European elections.
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> the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues.
Yes, speech does that. "The algorithm" is curation but the content we are talking about is mostly Americans talking to other Americans. The goal is to control and suppress that communication.
There are perfectly valid arguments to ban TikTok. And hey, there are arguments to be made that free speech shouldn't be absolute. But that doesn't fit into the American self image, so the argument must be obscured to reduce the dissonance. Your argument in particular maps perfectly to "Some kinds of speech are dangerous and people must be protected from them."
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> but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues
Is that the case or is that just assumed what the government means when they say issues of national security? I thought they meant our devices could be hacked by malicious code in TikTok apps.
> TikTok isn’t being banned because of free speech or not but because the usage of their algorithms allows the app to influence how Americans think about different issues. China has recognized this as a threat and as such has banned foreign adversary social media companies from operating within its borders.
The “personal freedom” part would be most immediately salient here.
Free speech wouldn’t apply if the app wasn’t in use already. But so many millions of Americans use the app already that it easily is about free speech as well.
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How can speech on TikTok be free if TikTok as a platform is not ?
The law regulates TikTok as a business, not their speech.
And America doesn't claim to uphold the rights of non-americans.
If this was a ban on an American company it would be a different story.
This is a trade issue.
If Country A bans imports from Country B, it's entirely reasonable to respond in kind.
As with trade issue so with this. If Country B bans imports they are actually hurting Country B not Country A.
China infringing on the inalienable rights of Chinese citizens is not a source of strength. It's weakness. It hurts China.
Responding in kind is me responding to my neighbors fire by dousing the living room with gasoline and lighting a match.
Then the US acts like China.
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China’s constitution definitely guarantees both, it even says without exception.
It's freedom of speech until you say bad stuff about Americas 51st state in the middle east that's killing on average 5 children every day with our tax money.
That was not the freedom of speech your supposed to hear on social media. That's why it's a threat. Be like Twitter and ban those accounts instead.
There are lots of things that China does that would be controversial in other countries. Why is it totally insane?
China banned things for entirely different reasons. They want to control the information they don't like. TikTok is banned so that Chinese government can't do the same thing here and influence a very large percentage of the US population. Not saying they're doing it now, but in general I agree that the potential threat is there. You can already see how big is the social media influence on people, on their political views etc.
> You can already see how big is the social media influence on people, on their political views etc.
If that is the reason for the ban, namely that American citizens cannot discern propaganda from factual information themselves and as a result must have their information shaped for them to achieve or avoid certain political outcomes, then that is quite literally the same reason China has for controlling the information space
No offense but you did basically just say the same thing twice, just with a bit of a patriot-act touch up. China doesn't just ban things they "don't like". What they don't like is exactly what you just lined out
Why is that insane? We should lead by example if we value free speech.
Arguing for individual humans to have freedom of speech to express their views is one thing, arguing for mega-corporations (look at the valuation estimates for Tiktok) to have freedom of speech for profit is quite another.
They do have freedom of speech—Citizen's United.
The more significant issue is that this is a bill of attainder. The fact that this was prima facia rejected by the courts is an indication that the NatSec state has corroded every branch of government, and we have a zombie government.
That is like saying we have freedom of speech but it doesn't apply if you are wealthy enough to afford a printing press. It is just a sleight of hand to avoid saying "we really don't".
So if China would pay $100 a month to every teacher in the US to teach some subversive topic, would that also be ok?
The issue here isn't free speech, but control over what content is promoted, unless you think the CCP has the right to free speech in the US.
The moment EU will ban x/itter for the exact same reason it will be all about free speech again.
> So if China would pay $100 a month to every teacher in the US to teach some subversive topic, would that also be ok?
It would not be OK, but not because it is China. It would not be OK because it is not OK for anyone to do that.
Sorry, it is a free speech issue. TikTok is a gestalt product of the content on there.
Maybe Washington should figure out a way to make fewer "Foreign adversaries" so it doesn't have to subvert the fundamental rights of its citizens.
Is it really controversial? Maybe there’s just a vocal minority but most people I know simply do not care… granted, I don’t hang out with many young ppl so there’s that..
I dunno, it feels pretty normal to be upset when a government which ostensibly represents me does something that I feel is actively against my interests.
I don't think that you have to decry every horrible thing in the world to be upset when folks do things that you don't like to you.
According to the youth, it's more about a government censoring what speech their citizens can see. The CCP does it, sure. But America doing it feels new.
Well, not new. But hypocritical, definitely.
In general I don’t think that’s insane at all.
There’s nothing inherently wrong with the idea that something that is normal in an authoritarian society is verboten and sacrilegious in a Democracy.
They don't exactly ban them, it's simply that their law is too stringent and invasive to make it worth the hassle.
Banning a media platform in America used by most Americans is controversial? Say it ain't so!
If you brag with freedoms and free speech, you can't really use what china is doing as an excuse to do the same.
"It's insane that China can engage in genocide but engaging in genocide ourselves is so controversial"
This isn't really a good argument. Someone else being horrible isn't grounds to be horrible yourself. There are better arguments for banning TikTok, like protecting the youth from having their brains rotted out.
Yeah totally insane that our government actually has to be concerned with public opinion.
Is that sarcasm?