Comment by echelon
10 months ago
At the top of the page:
> Hi! It looks like you might have come from Hacker News.
> Asahi Linux developers are frequent targets of abuse on Hacker News. Despite our pleas, the moderators have not taken effective action to improve the situation.
> Overtly hateful content is often flagged on HN and not immediately visible. Unfortunately, when a comment is flagged and killed, its child subthread is not. That preserves the 'clean' image of the website, but the reduced moderation activity enables abuse to continue. Although you don't see those threads, search engines do. HN uniquely has a high page rank and low moderation, making it a prime target for bad actors to poison search results with abuse, bigotry, and nastiness. This isn't low-level trolling, but an organized attempt to destroy lives, including of developers in our communities.
> Please demand change within your community.
This is an unfair and gross assessment. I've lost some respect from Asahi for this.
They're calling for extreme moderation of opinions they don't agree with, which is the opposite of open discourse.
Asahi: deal with it. You're Streisand Effecting this. Your inability to handle drama is actually causing more drama. Just turn the other cheek and ignore it.
seconded. even if it was completely true criticism, which it categorically is not, putting up a half-page banner is extremely gauche and immature.
saying things like "an organized attempt to destroy lives, including of developers in our communities" is patently not true. trolls get flagged. honest nice people who don't agree with you aren't trying to destroy anything and nor do they hate you.
I'm unsure whether the most charitable reading of your comment is to assume you missed that these linked phrases exist on the original site but were not included in the text copied into the comment above, or something else:
* "bad actors" links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms
* "destroy lives" links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Suicides_of_harassm...
While you may be correct that initial "trolls get flagged", the statement on the Asahi site agrees that while the initial comment may be flagged & killed, the other comments in the subthread are still indexed, visible & tend not to get moderated/flag:
"Unfortunately, when a comment is flagged and killed, its child subthread is not. [...] but the reduced moderation activity enables abuse to continue. Although you don't see those threads, search engines do."
Based on other remarks about the content of such subthreads it seems surprising to claim that follow-on comments are made by "honest nice people".
I'm as much of a fan of adverbs as the next person but using words like "categorically", "extremely" & "patently" doesn't seem to leave much room for nuance of interpretation when written by someone who I'd have assumed was a third party observer?
While I could understand someone describing JWZ's HN-tailored "banner" (I wouldn't suggest researching this if anyone is not already familiar) gauche and immature, it feels like somewhat of a stretch in relation to a plain text message who last sentence starts with "Please".
> I'm unsure whether the most charitable reading of your comment is to assume you missed that these linked phrases exist on the original site but were not included in the text copied into the comment above, or something else:
> * "bad actors" links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms
> * "destroy lives" links to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Suicides_of_harassm...
As has already been pointed out, HN isn't "Kiwi Farms" (whatever that is), so WTF does that have to do with their whining specifically about HN???
> While you may be correct that initial "trolls get flagged", the statement on the Asahi site agrees that while the initial comment may be flagged & killed, the other comments in the subthread are still indexed, visible & tend not to get moderated/flag:
> "Unfortunately, when a comment is flagged and killed, its child subthread is not. [...] but the reduced moderation activity enables abuse to continue. Although you don't see those threads, search engines do."
And what's the problem with, I assume they mean, not all comments in subthreads of dead comments also being automatically killed? I read HN with "Show dead" on, so I get to see those with a simple click of "[... more]", and I usually open them. What I've found is that the absolute majority of these responses are sensible comments pointing out what's wrong with the original inappropriate comment.
So the "problem" they're complaining about is not only not a problem; it's actually the remedy for that exact issue. The banner is not only childishly whiny, but actually self-contradictory. In short, it's stupid.
disagree, strongly. kiwi-farms has nothing to do with hn. if kiwi-farms starts brigading and spamming/trolling on hn, it gets flagged.
> the other comments in the subthread are still indexed, visible & tend not to get moderated/flagged
indexed: please complain to google.
visible: not unless you turn on show-dead. so don't do that.
don't get moderated: they are already dead.
> I'm as much of a fan of adverbs
i mean what i said. i'm extremely tired of seeing histrionics and exaggerations, misplaced blame, etc. turned into loud, unfair, criticism toward what is probably the best moderated group i can think of.
JWZ's banner is at least recognizable as satire, and his opinions are well known. i can disagree with him, but still find it a little bit funny (and immature). but if you do the same thing (yes, with a please), then you are just exactly as mature. and if you are serious, less grounded in reality and not nearly as funny.
If the opinions they don't agree with exist on Hacker News, and they do (check the dead comments in just about any thread where Asahi Linux comes up) then it isn't an unfair assessment at all.
What is the "it" that you're insisting they "deal with," here? What is the "drama?"
Also what value does bigotry, homophobia and transphobia have in open discourse that it must be preserved? None of that is on topic for Hacker News, why must it be on topic for the Asahi Linux community?
This wasn't even my point [1], but I'll go there.
Turn the other cheek. Ignore it. It's 2025 we're learning lessons from USENET all over again and having to reign in the over-sensitive, disregulated behavior of some people.
I'm gay, on the spectrum, and my wife is trans. What certain people in "my" community do from places of relative comfort makes life for those of us in more moderate / conservative-leaning places worse. The screeching from our community [2] has turned our little demographic into a major culture war topic, and it's all because of the bad attention and friction you manufacture.
Conservatives let LGBT and trans issues slide for over two decades of my adult life. But by being loud and attempting to silence them -- by harassing them -- you've become the nail that sticks out and have now created a tidal wave of opinion against us.
It's easy for some European or SF trans person to call for universal outlawing and censoring of speech, but you have to realize your message is being read all over the world. It's interpreted by an overwhelming number of people as attempting to memory hole conservatives and flush away their culture.
Simultaneous to your harmful messages, folks are also being inundated with social media rage/engagement bait to make them think liberals are literally attempting to destroy and annihilate conservatives [3].
Your message adds weight to this perception, and all you accomplish here is making the majority of voters angry at us. It even turns moderates and would-be supporters sour.
I hate that you represent me by association and think that this is acceptable behavior.
As another anecdote, when I talk to my friends about Rust, the subject of "drama" frequently comes up. Why is that? Suddenly my work becomes harder for an entirely unrelated and unmerited reason. That's just me as an LGBT person - imagine how straight people feel.
We shouldn't have to keep reading about this over and over. It's orthogonal, childish, dysfunctional behavior.
Take one more look at that loud disgusting banner on the top of the Asahi page. That's neener-neenering in front of everyone. Even the moderates you hope to be your allies. Please, for god's sake, put yourself into different shoes. You're asking them to do it for you, but it's your turn.
I think you'll see that your behavior is also harassment.
Please calm down, slow down, and behave like adults. Not everything warrants a response or attention. Chances are, it'll just go away and get totally ignored. When you engage, you shift the conversation and bring yourselves down to their level. You create a firestorm of drama that everyone watches like a burning wreck.
Stand above that.
[1] I only wanted to talk about the very public, inflammatory resignation and the immature handling of this by certain parties.
[2] eg, folks whose entire personality is to harass people on social media: https://www.tiktok.com/@lillytino_/video/7295890626539687210
[3] Just look at this image and how religious people take it: https://danolinger.com/2018/11/01/responding-to-persecution-...
> Conservatives let LGBT and trans issues slide for over two decades of my adult life. But by being loud and attempting to silence them -- by harassing them -- you've become the nail that sticks out and have now created a tidal wave of opinion against us.
In the US, DADT was repealed in 2011. Obergefell was 2015. The idea that they let LGBT and trans issues slide for over 20 years is fundamentally wrong and not supported by history.
I reject the rest of your post and the defense of those that would take rights away from individuals and myself because they have to be coddled.
I would like to first acknowledge the feelings of what I read to be anger, frustration & pain you expressed in your comment. (If I've misinterpreted what you've written, I am open to reading further clarification if that's something you felt like investing effort into.)
While my life experience has been different to yours, from what you've written about how you've been treated by others in your community, as a consequence of who you are, it seems understandable to me that you might experience those feelings--and, even if they didn't seem understandable to me, it is more important to me that you feel heard and your feelings acknowledged as valid and not dismissed.
I hope I have been able to communicate that intent effectively.
----
At the risk of falling into the stereotype traps of "straight white male thinks every rhetorical invitation is a literal invitation for him to say what he thinks" & "straight-splaining" I did want to provide an answer to the question in the last sentence here:
> "As another anecdote, when I talk to my friends about Rust, the subject of "drama" frequently comes up. Why is that? Suddenly my work becomes harder for an entirely unrelated and unmerited reason. That's just me as an LGBT person - imagine how straight people feel."
(I preface the following with an acknowledgement that it's bullshit that you have had to deal with the impact of this rather than the predominantly straight white males who don't want to be made to feel uncomfortable.)
TL;DR:
FWIW, from my perspective as a straight white male I feel the subject of "Public Interpersonal Conflict" attributed to Rust is directly related to values rightfully espoused/embodied by the Rust project/community/language that are at odds with values held by other groups.
Specifically, groups consisting of predominantly straight white males believe that the comfort of predominantly highly skilled straight white males should be prioritized over the physical well-being of other humans; and, also over the security and stability of the software other humans use.
They are also unlikely to agree with this characterization.
Unlike the above group however, rather than targeting resentment at the people whose physical well-being is at risk I choose to direct my resentment at the predominantly straight white males who choose to dismiss important issues as unimportant "drama" because they resent being "made" to think about issues that impact people other than themselves.
----
For anyone who disagrees with my characterization I would point out that we do not know what other contributions Alan Turing may have contributed beyond "Turing Completeness" & "the Turing Test" to current in-demand fields such as AI if he hadn't been persecuted for not being a straight white male.
I would also remind them the ARM CPU attached to that unified memory on which they're running their latest AGI & LLM models is thanks to another person some people in the present day think should be persecuted for daring to exist.
But equally people shouldn't have to trade advancements in the field of Computer Science for the right to exist without persecution.
----
I will acknowledge that its entirely understandable to want to avoid the associated discomfort because from personal experience it is very uncomfortable to have to re-evaluate one's place & responsibility in the world after a lifetime of being told something different.
----
The other ~2,500 words I wrote on the topic was certainly more nuanced but pretty much said the same thing with more beating around the bush with additional personal context.
For any straight white males who may be confused why someone might think as I do, all I can say is that time spent reading/listening to this (unfortunately, archived) resource is likely to be worthwhile, if temporarily uncomfortable: https://geekfeminism.fandom.com/wiki/Geek_Feminism_Wiki
How does asking for flag-killing a post to also disable replies in the thread equate to extreme moderation of opinions they disagree with?
If you’d face half the abuse, you’d be singing a different tune.