I saw ESR once in a NY venue around 2000 in the middle of the bubble.
He was waving with a CD with newly open sourced banking software of some sort and raving about how all developers overarching goal will be to open source their work because don't care about money anymore, they already make so much.
Not very impressive then and not very impressive today.
>[...] Unfortunately, ESR would not accept patches for the mistaken
MX problem, nor for the preference order problem, nor for the
tunneled envelope information stripping problem. He seemed to
be too busy with speaking engagements, and has since declared
fetchmail to be in "maintenance mode", in order to demonstrate
a recognizable commercial software lifecycle for an Open Source
project, to give business the warm fuzzies.
Why did you write getmail? Why not just use fetchmail?
Short answer: … well, the short answer is mostly unprintable. The long answer is … well, long:
I do not like some of the design choices which were made with fetchmail. getmail does things a little differently, and for my purposes, better. In addition, most people find getmail easier to configure and use than fetchmail. Perhaps most importantly, getmail goes to great lengths to ensure that mail is never lost, while fetchmail (in its default configuration) frequently loses mail, causes mail loops, bounces legitimate messages, and causes many other problems.
When people have pointed out problems in fetchmail's design and implementation, it's maintainer has frequently ignored them, or (worse yet) gone in the completely wrong direction in the name of "fixing" the problems. For instance, fetchmail's configuration file syntax has been criticized as being needlessly difficult to write; instead of cleaning up the syntax, the maintainer instead included a GUI configuration-file-writing program, leading to comments like:
The punchline is that fetchmail sucks, even if it does have giddily-engineered whizbang configurator apps.
As an example, Dan Bernstein, author of qmail and other software packages, once noted to the qmail list:
Last night, root@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx reinjected thirty old messages from various authors to qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
This sort of idiocy happens much more often than most subscribers know, thanks to a broken piece of software by Eric Raymond called fetchmail. Fortunately, qmail and ezmlm have loop-prevention mechanisms that stop these messages before they are distributed to subscribers. The messages end up bouncing to the wrong place, thanks to another fetchmail bug, but at least the mailing list is protected.
--D. J. Bernstein
The maintainer also ignored dozens of complaints about fetchmail's behaviour, stating (by fiat) that fetchmail was bug-free and had entered "maintenance mode", allowing him to ignore further bug reports.
But this is not the strongest language. Perhaps the most snarky response to fetchmail comes from Terry Lambert (docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=585008+0+archive/2001/freebsd-arch/20010218.freebsd-arch):
>As to fetchmail: it is an abomination before God. If someone in the press ever paid for an audit of the source code, the result would refute the paper "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" to such an extent that it could damage the Open Source movement, which has pinned so much on the paper, in ill-considered haste.
>ESR has constantly maintained that fetchmail is "not an MTA", and he is right: it could be, but it's not.
>When mail is delivered to a POP3 maildrop, envelope information is destroyed. To combat this, you would need to tunnel the envelope information in headers. Generally, sendmail does not support "X-Envelope-To:" because it exposes "Bcc:" recipients, since fetchmail-like programs generally _stupidly_ do not strip such headers before local re-injection of the email. Without this information, it can not recover the intended recipient of the email. The fetchmail program delivers this mail to "root".
>The program has another bug, even if you elect single message delivery (in order to ensure a "for <user@domain>" in the "Received:" timestamp line. The bug is that it assumes the machine from which the download is occurring is a valid MX for your domain.... [pld: the end result is misaddressed replies]
...
>Unfortunately, ESR would not accept patches for the mistaken MX problem, nor for the preference order problem, nor for the tunneled envelope information stripping problem. He seemed to be too busy with speaking engagements, and has since declared fetchmail to be in "maintenance mode", in order to demonstrate a recognizable commercial software lifecycle for an Open Source project, to give business the warm fuzzies.
When I hear about ESR nowadays, it's usually in the context of extreme right-wing politics. I'm not sure whether that's an accurate description of the man or a smear campaign against him.
That said, if you dig into the Jargon File on catb.org, you can find some interesting descriptions of how ESR perceived his hacker[0] community.
[0]Notably, his "hackers" are computer programmers from the ARPANET, USENET, and 1990s Internet cultures. Not cybercriminals or Silicon Valley startup founders.
I've known ESR (aka "Eric the Flute") and RMS (Richard Stallman) since the early 1980's, and batshit crazy smarmy arrogant self-aggrandizing sexist racist anti-black homophobic Islamophobic neocon interventionist libertarian gun nut is a fair and accurate description of ESR's politics. "Yonder Racism" is an ironically accurate anagram of his name.
The only "smear campaign" is his own long term war against the FSF institutionally, RMS personally, and the concept of Free Software itself: he's built his entire career on trying to tear down RMS's life work, while misappropriating and corrupting RMS's original ideas as his own.
But the code ESR has written himself is mediocre and lackluster at best, and trivial and unimportant in comparison to RMS's. (Ask him why he never shipped let alone shared the source code of his unfinished magnum dopeus Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtle NetNews Reader, which he would drone on and on about endlessly and insufferably to people he cornered at science fiction conventions in the 80's, but never finished or released or shared with any bazaar or cathedral.)
He certainly doesn't deserve to be called a hacker, let alone presume to define the meaning of the term. Real hackers from the MIT-AI lab where it originated consider his revisionist politically slanted rewriting-for-profit of the Hacker's Dictionary to be disrespectful parasitical vandalism that doesn't represent the actual hacker culture, just a tool he hijacked, corrupted, and abused to spread his right-wing political ideology.
He made up the ridiculous "many eyes" quote himself, then misnamed it "Linus's Law" to avoid personal responsibility and shift the blame to innocent Linus Torvalds, who never said such a stupid thing, and which HeartBleed and many other eyeballable bugs proved terribly wrong and misguided. About which the salty security expert Theo de Raadt famously said "Oh right, let's hear some of that "many eyes" crap again. My favorite part of the "many eyes" argument is how few bugs were found by the two eyes of Eric (the originator of the statement). All the many eyes are apparently attached to a lot of hands that type lots of words about many eyes, and never actually audit code."
Anything good you've heard about him comes from his own mouth shamelessly and braggadociously bloviating about himself. You can set your watch by his flying monkeys, GamerGate incels, and bulging-at-the-seams electroluminescent spandex clad Tron Guy Jay Maynard swooping in to defend him and downvote brigade any criticism. (I shit you not, Tron Guy is literally and figuratively his biggest fan: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20383916
Hey Don? I've seen this post of yours more than once, so I'm assuming you've got it saved somewhere, ready to go whenever the Flute gets mentioned. I don't disagree with anything you've written here, but I am curious if there was a last straw for you that makes you post this every time his name comes up.
From both the Rational Wiki, and from vaguely remembered Slashdot comments from 20+ years ago, I thought that ESR's 'The Art of Unix Programming' was regarded as pretty good.
I'm curious if this is accurate, because it would seem to be out of character.
I saw ESR once in a NY venue around 2000 in the middle of the bubble.
He was waving with a CD with newly open sourced banking software of some sort and raving about how all developers overarching goal will be to open source their work because don't care about money anymore, they already make so much.
Not very impressive then and not very impressive today.
I wonder, too, how has fetchmail held up over time? Was it a good program?
Nope.
UUCP must stay; Fetchmail sucks (2001) (freebsd.org)
https://mail-archive.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=585008...
>[...] Unfortunately, ESR would not accept patches for the mistaken MX problem, nor for the preference order problem, nor for the tunneled envelope information stripping problem. He seemed to be too busy with speaking engagements, and has since declared fetchmail to be in "maintenance mode", in order to demonstrate a recognizable commercial software lifecycle for an Open Source project, to give business the warm fuzzies.
https://pyropus.ca./software/getmail/faq.html#faq-about-why
Why did you write getmail? Why not just use fetchmail? Short answer: … well, the short answer is mostly unprintable. The long answer is … well, long:
I do not like some of the design choices which were made with fetchmail. getmail does things a little differently, and for my purposes, better. In addition, most people find getmail easier to configure and use than fetchmail. Perhaps most importantly, getmail goes to great lengths to ensure that mail is never lost, while fetchmail (in its default configuration) frequently loses mail, causes mail loops, bounces legitimate messages, and causes many other problems.
When people have pointed out problems in fetchmail's design and implementation, it's maintainer has frequently ignored them, or (worse yet) gone in the completely wrong direction in the name of "fixing" the problems. For instance, fetchmail's configuration file syntax has been criticized as being needlessly difficult to write; instead of cleaning up the syntax, the maintainer instead included a GUI configuration-file-writing program, leading to comments like:
The punchline is that fetchmail sucks, even if it does have giddily-engineered whizbang configurator apps.
As an example, Dan Bernstein, author of qmail and other software packages, once noted to the qmail list:
Last night, root@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx reinjected thirty old messages from various authors to qmail@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
This sort of idiocy happens much more often than most subscribers know, thanks to a broken piece of software by Eric Raymond called fetchmail. Fortunately, qmail and ezmlm have loop-prevention mechanisms that stop these messages before they are distributed to subscribers. The messages end up bouncing to the wrong place, thanks to another fetchmail bug, but at least the mailing list is protected.
--D. J. Bernstein
The maintainer also ignored dozens of complaints about fetchmail's behaviour, stating (by fiat) that fetchmail was bug-free and had entered "maintenance mode", allowing him to ignore further bug reports.
[...]
https://pld.cs.luc.edu/courses/412/spr20/mnotes/bazaar.html
But this is not the strongest language. Perhaps the most snarky response to fetchmail comes from Terry Lambert (docs.freebsd.org/cgi/getmsg.cgi?fetch=585008+0+archive/2001/freebsd-arch/20010218.freebsd-arch):
>As to fetchmail: it is an abomination before God. If someone in the press ever paid for an audit of the source code, the result would refute the paper "The Cathedral and the Bazaar" to such an extent that it could damage the Open Source movement, which has pinned so much on the paper, in ill-considered haste.
>ESR has constantly maintained that fetchmail is "not an MTA", and he is right: it could be, but it's not.
>When mail is delivered to a POP3 maildrop, envelope information is destroyed. To combat this, you would need to tunnel the envelope information in headers. Generally, sendmail does not support "X-Envelope-To:" because it exposes "Bcc:" recipients, since fetchmail-like programs generally _stupidly_ do not strip such headers before local re-injection of the email. Without this information, it can not recover the intended recipient of the email. The fetchmail program delivers this mail to "root".
>The program has another bug, even if you elect single message delivery (in order to ensure a "for <user@domain>" in the "Received:" timestamp line. The bug is that it assumes the machine from which the download is occurring is a valid MX for your domain.... [pld: the end result is misaddressed replies]
...
>Unfortunately, ESR would not accept patches for the mistaken MX problem, nor for the preference order problem, nor for the tunneled envelope information stripping problem. He seemed to be too busy with speaking engagements, and has since declared fetchmail to be in "maintenance mode", in order to demonstrate a recognizable commercial software lifecycle for an Open Source project, to give business the warm fuzzies.
Ouch.
When I hear about ESR nowadays, it's usually in the context of extreme right-wing politics. I'm not sure whether that's an accurate description of the man or a smear campaign against him.
That said, if you dig into the Jargon File on catb.org, you can find some interesting descriptions of how ESR perceived his hacker[0] community.
[0]Notably, his "hackers" are computer programmers from the ARPANET, USENET, and 1990s Internet cultures. Not cybercriminals or Silicon Valley startup founders.
I've known ESR (aka "Eric the Flute") and RMS (Richard Stallman) since the early 1980's, and batshit crazy smarmy arrogant self-aggrandizing sexist racist anti-black homophobic Islamophobic neocon interventionist libertarian gun nut is a fair and accurate description of ESR's politics. "Yonder Racism" is an ironically accurate anagram of his name.
The only "smear campaign" is his own long term war against the FSF institutionally, RMS personally, and the concept of Free Software itself: he's built his entire career on trying to tear down RMS's life work, while misappropriating and corrupting RMS's original ideas as his own.
But the code ESR has written himself is mediocre and lackluster at best, and trivial and unimportant in comparison to RMS's. (Ask him why he never shipped let alone shared the source code of his unfinished magnum dopeus Teenaged Mutant Ninja Turtle NetNews Reader, which he would drone on and on about endlessly and insufferably to people he cornered at science fiction conventions in the 80's, but never finished or released or shared with any bazaar or cathedral.)
He certainly doesn't deserve to be called a hacker, let alone presume to define the meaning of the term. Real hackers from the MIT-AI lab where it originated consider his revisionist politically slanted rewriting-for-profit of the Hacker's Dictionary to be disrespectful parasitical vandalism that doesn't represent the actual hacker culture, just a tool he hijacked, corrupted, and abused to spread his right-wing political ideology.
He made up the ridiculous "many eyes" quote himself, then misnamed it "Linus's Law" to avoid personal responsibility and shift the blame to innocent Linus Torvalds, who never said such a stupid thing, and which HeartBleed and many other eyeballable bugs proved terribly wrong and misguided. About which the salty security expert Theo de Raadt famously said "Oh right, let's hear some of that "many eyes" crap again. My favorite part of the "many eyes" argument is how few bugs were found by the two eyes of Eric (the originator of the statement). All the many eyes are apparently attached to a lot of hands that type lots of words about many eyes, and never actually audit code."
Anything good you've heard about him comes from his own mouth shamelessly and braggadociously bloviating about himself. You can set your watch by his flying monkeys, GamerGate incels, and bulging-at-the-seams electroluminescent spandex clad Tron Guy Jay Maynard swooping in to defend him and downvote brigade any criticism. (I shit you not, Tron Guy is literally and figuratively his biggest fan: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20383916
Hey Don? I've seen this post of yours more than once, so I'm assuming you've got it saved somewhere, ready to go whenever the Flute gets mentioned. I don't disagree with anything you've written here, but I am curious if there was a last straw for you that makes you post this every time his name comes up.
1 reply →
From both the Rational Wiki, and from vaguely remembered Slashdot comments from 20+ years ago, I thought that ESR's 'The Art of Unix Programming' was regarded as pretty good.
I'm curious if this is accurate, because it would seem to be out of character.
8 replies →