Comment by _mitterpach
1 year ago
Link directly to the Github commit: https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/commit/d459addab846d8144b..., which links to the following issue: https://github.com/mozilla/bedrock/issues/16016
There are a bunch of locked Google docs linked in the issue, probably internal privacy guidelines.
I can't say that this surprises me, perhaps they are looking for alternate revenue streams in case Google cuts them out?
To HN: Will you be quitting firefox over this change, or is there simply no better place to leave for?
What's the purpose of gating "we don’t sell access to your data" by "if switch('firefox-tou')"?
They said in the commit comment that the new TOU will "roll out" to different people at different times.
Does that in multiple places. Maybe they wanted a way to quickly revert it? Or enable on countries where they think they can get away with it?
"No better place to leave for" seems an apt way to put it.
I think/fear that in the long run, there will be fewer and fewer ways to participate in activities and communities on the web on your own terms, as only a vetted, allowlisted set of client builds (that may be "open source" on the tin, but by that point it is effectively meaningless) will be able to pass CDN "anti-abuse" restrictions. It will not be a better web, but it sure will be more profitable for some.
> No better place to leave for
This is an amazingly common psychological trap. You wouldn't believe the number of people, men as well as women, who end up in the therapy chair, at the police station or at the hospital A&E, because they are "stuck" with a violent and abusive partner.
The modern tech landscape is all about abuse. People use fancy names for it like "enshitification" or "rot economy" - but at the end of the day it's about domination and abusive relations.
A very common position here is that the victim sees "no alternative".
And... surprise surprise, where they get that idea from is the partner, friends, group/organisation that is also toxic and colludes in gas-lighting and co-abusing the victim into a limited worldview.
Once the victim spends any amount of time outside that mental prison, they regain perspective and say... "Oh, so I actually do have choices!".
This is a poor analogy. There are thousands of people to meet and bond with, so you do have a choice. But there are less than a handful of fundamentally different browsers.
Derivative browsers don't really count here, as they depend on the upstream to not hurt them. For instance, if the parent project completely removes something essential for privacy, it it a lot of work to keep it in your code. The Manifest v2 removal is an example. Over time, when other changes are built on the removal, this creates an increasingly high burden. Eventually, the child project is starved. You simply do not want to be in this position.
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Okay. So why don't you tell us what the better choice(s) are?
Yes, I’ll be leaving. I used to prefer Firefox but have long since moved to Safari for browsing and <insert Chromium based browser> for web dev. Every year I give switching to FF a try. I’ve been using it for everything since mid-December but it’s honestly a pretty bad user experience. This is the move that’s gonna make me stop for this year’s trial run and all future ones. It’s simply not worth my time if their ideals don’t align with mine anymore. Safari and Chromium have their issues but I know what benefits I’m trading off for. Without ideals, FF has no standout features compared to the alternatives (for me).
I'll look for somewhere else. Web browsers aren't as special as they used to be, there's a lot more choice now. Funny thing was, I was paying for Firefox through some of their services (VPN) that I had no intent to use.
I quit the original l"Firefox" a long time ago, I've been using librewolf since its release and now zen (also a firefox fork) and I keep ungoogled chromium in case a site is broken on firefox.
> To HN: Will you be quitting firefox over this change, or is there simply no better place to leave for?
It doesn't really concern me yet. I'll wait for the controversy to die down and examine it then.
I'll stay for the time being because there is no better alternative.
Yeah, I've been a Firefox user and Mozilla supporter for approaching two decades now, even used to donate monthly to the foundation. I'm furious over this. I installed LibreWolf on my personal machines last night and expect to uninstall Firefox after work today.
I'm a happy LibreWolf for years. The transition from FF to LibreWolf is seamless. And you won't be surprised anymore nor annoyed when Mozilla does moves like that.
It's seamless-ish.
Sometimes the more aggressive privacy settings stop some sites from rendering properly unless you add canvas exceptions, for example Openstreetmap and UK National Rail.
I'm happy to make the effort.
/Librewolf on desktop, Waterfox on mobile.
I probably will, actually. It was good to have an ally with their stature and history.
> To HN: Will you be quitting firefox over this change, or is there simply no better place to leave for?
Not to be overly whataboutistic, but we tolerate sooo much more from other players. It's annoying how we hold some to a higher standard, but ignore others doing worse. I get people are disappointed in Mozilla and wants them to do better, but it's a bit like the "we live in a society meme", where those doing good must be perfect or else..
I use Firefox, and advocate for people to use Firefox, because I believe it's the one browser that is not evil. It's the entire reason for the existence of Firefox.
Saying, well, why aren't you upset that Chrome is evil is such a confusion of ideas I barely know how to respond. Yes, I know Chrome is evil, I've been telling people that for many years, and I don't use it.
> It's annoying how we hold some to a higher standard, but ignore others doing worse.
People use FF, _because_ they can hold it to a higher standard. That's the entire point.
Those perceived to be doing good are often used to lessen the blow of those perceived to be doing bad. Like how it's not so bad if your train sinks of faeces if there's a bus you can take instead. Losing the safe alternative makes the original sin worse.
> Not to be overly whataboutistic, but we tolerate sooo much more from other players. It's annoying how we hold some to a higher standard, but ignore others doing worse.
Who is "we"? It certainly doesn't include me.
Someone who tries to gain your trust only to betray it gets a stronger reaction than a known bad actor doing what they are known for? Color me surprised.
> I get people are disappointed in Mozilla and wants them to do better, but it's a bit like the "we live in a society meme", where those doing good must be perfect or else
You are talking like mozilla made a mistake. Yet their response was not to apologize but to claim people are just confused.
How much shit can Mozilla pull before people are allowed to say enough is enough?
I'll keep using firefox simply because I keep it behind a proxy server with all pocket, mozilla, firefox and google domains blocked.
The larger impact I suspect this will have in my life, is that I'll increasingly turn to not using websites, opting instead to using tools like yt-dlp.
These changes didn't just happen because of a bunch of greedy ad pushers. This and many other changes over the last few decades came about by taking my tax money and pouring it into these companies to gain compliance to state agendas. This isn't something the 'community' will be able to stave off.
If the internet is just going to become another medium like TV, Radio and newspapers were for so many years, adding on top the ability of the producers to watch me watching them, then it's over. The tech community is full of intellectual dishonest sellouts. Game over. Let's push letsencrypt again in response to the state backdooring the certificate authorities, duuurrr. "AI", duurrrr.
What other tools are you using instead of Firefox and/or a browser?
How does discovery work with tools like yt-dlp?
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I have long left the sinking ship and switched to enshitified and actually private https://librewolf.net/
Which will go under within a few years of FF dying. (Yes, the current code may still work, but the web will move on without it.)
I am very aware but that does not change that currently its a superior alternative.
i don't think that matters. we are looking for firefox based alternatives to get away from stupid policy changes, not to find a browser that has a better chance of survival.
any alternatives will be good as long as firefox is alive. if firefox itself dies, then that's an entirely different matter.
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Will FF die though or will it be released from mismanagement when Mozilla finally goes under.