Comment by rayiner
20 days ago
Utah has among the best schools in the nation: https://www.reddit.com/r/Utah/comments/1idrt6j/utah_spends_t...
It also has among the happiest citizens: https://www.deseret.com/utah/2024/09/09/utah-mental-health-h...
It has the highest economic mobility in the country: https://www.forbes.com/sites/adammillsap/2023/12/22/utah-top...
Despite being filled with guns, it’s got a homicide rate only a little higher than Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention...
And it’s ranked in the top 10 states for life expectancy: https://www.axios.com/local/salt-lake-city/2022/08/24/utah-t...
Utah and Massachusetts are basically the steel-man versions of their respective ideologies. But Utah doesn’t have the benefit of Harvard and MIT, major Pharma companies, etc. It’s surrounded by desert and has no natural resources to speak of.
A lot of that is due to the Mormons. While they tend to vote Republican, they are some of the biggest socialists out there. They believe in giving 10% of their income to the church (and enforce it!).
Then they redistribute to their poorest members in the form of free private education at all pre-college levels and highly subsidized college as well. And with food banks, free or subsidized medical services, and whole bunch of other things the government doesn't provide.
They've essentially traded one government for another, but theirs requires belief in their religion and only applies to their believers (who happen to concentrate in Utah).
That’s the steel-man version of (american) conservatism: civic institutions provide the safety net instead of the government.
And in terms of aggregate outcomes, Utah’s results are impressive. The LDS apparently does a better job teaching kids to read than the government here in Maryland.
> Utah achieves great aggregate outcomes even compared to states that spend a lot more money
That's because you're not counting the money the church spends to replace government programs, which in Utah is significant.
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Yeah, but extremely regressive views on equality and women's rights come along with it....
You can get a lot done when you establish regressive control structures for enforcement. Generally speaking, most people usually don't want that trade-off.
>civic institutions provide the safety net instead of the government
Now that the internet has destroyed local community and trust in institutions, what will conservatism do?
> and only applies to their believers (who happen to concentrate in Utah)
Worth noting here that the church additionally spends north of $1 billion annually on humanitarian aid across the globe [1] (separate from the redistributions to the poor mentioned by OP). Aid is provided independent of religious affiliation.
[1] https://philanthropies.churchofjesuschrist.org/humanitarian-...
Al Capone ran soup kitchens. He seemed like a good dude. What percentage of their global wealth is $1 billion? I wish I knew but for some reason they keep that a secret. And don't leave or they'll expect your family to cut you off.
*: searches suggest the wealth of the church to be around $265 billion. So their members give 10% annually to the church and the church gives less than 0.5% of their total wealth to the poor (but mostly to other Mormons or prospective converts). If you're wondering why they keep this massive horde of wealth, it's because they think it'll be needed for the apocalypse. Yes, it's for the apocalypse.
> [The Mormons] believe in giving 10% of their income
Is that income before tax or after tax?
"After tax" seems like it should be obvious, but then wouldn't that require tax specialists to decide how to deal with tax exceptions (retirement taxation incentives, donations, etcetera).
If the 10% donation is tax deductible, doesn't that require some mathematics to work out the 10%?
Irrelevant aside: I think the efficient altruist 10% is "We're often asked how exactly to calculate income — should it be pre-tax or post-tax? Generally, we recommend choosing the option that makes most sense to you, though we think it makes sense to choose pre-tax if your donations are tax-deductible (for example, GiftAid counts towards your Pledge!) and post-tax if they're not.". https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/pledge
> Is that income before tax or after tax?
It’s up to personal interpretation. Some do before tax, some do after. Some only pay tithing on their regular income (i.e. from a normal job) but not on “already tithed” income (e.g. birthday money from parents), while others do it differently.
The church’s stance is that they say you should pay 10% tithing on your income. They don’t define income. And all they do is ask “do you pay a full tithe?” And it’s up to you to decide if you do or not based on how you view what “income” means.
It's pre-tax. It comes from the Bible where you set it aside "before anything else".
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Calling Mormons socialist is inaccurate. Socialism is government-forced redistribution of wealth. A large majority of Mormons, at least in Utah, are very much opposed to that. You are correct that a large majority of Mormons voluntarily share their wealth with the poor and needy.
You are incorrect saying that you have to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (the actual name of the "Mormon church") to receive these benefits. In some cases there will be conditions, like if you want to attend one of the church universities you will need to promise to abstain from alcohol (one example), but becoming a baptized member of the church is not required
> Calling Mormons socialist is inaccurate
I would say it's very accurate. They are forced to share their wealth to get into the Kingdom of God. The only choice they have is to not go to heaven. I'd say that's being forced, just by a different power.
> but becoming a baptized member of the church is not required
You don't get the BYU discount unless you're baptized.
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Doesn’t that contradict the negative outcome of fluoride in the water?