Comment by bsza
21 days ago
While I acknowledge it is not a "solved" issue, I find it bizarre nonetheless, simply because it is so disproportionately low-stakes compared to the amount of controversy around it. Increased risk of cavities versus tentative evidence of losing 1-2 IQ points at 1.5 mg/L? Sounds like a Monty Python sketch to me that people would get so worked up over this.
The risk of cavities is reduced by using toothpaste or mouth washes with fluoride, not by drinking fluoridated water.
Almost all fluoride from the drinking water does not have any effect on tooth enamel, because it has contact with it only for a few seconds, except for an infinitesimal fraction that may exit again the body in saliva.
On the other hand, the harmful effects of fluoride in drinking water are certain and it cannot be predicted exactly how much water will be ingested by someone, i.e. which will be the harmful dose of ingested fluoride.
The only argument of those who support water fluoridation is that most people must be morons who cannot be taught to wash their teeth. I do not believe that this theory can be right.
> The risk of cavities is reduced by using toothpaste or mouth washes with fluoride, not by drinking fluoridated water.
it always surprises me how willing people are to just make something up and be confident in doing so. We've know for almost 75 years that water fluoridation reduces tooth decay[1] and yet here you are straight up denying that.
Do you just not care if you are correct? or do you know you aren't but are driven by the beliefs you already hold?
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/oral-health/data-research/facts-stats/fa...
> Almost all fluoride from the drinking water does not have any effect on tooth enamel, because it has contact with it only for a few seconds
The contact via toothpaste or mouth wash isn’t all that much longer, so why would they be effective if fluoridated water isn’t? People intentionally wash out toothpaste and mouthwash after this short contact.
Im sorry, but I think it’s ridiculous that thinking something that knows off an IQ point or two isn’t a big deal.
For one, we’re literally making everyone slightly less intelligent. While it’s a very small factor, I sure as hell wouldn’t want that for my daughters.
For two, IQ is easy to measure. Through that, we know it’s affecting the brain during development. How else is it affecting it? We don’t know.
Weighed against potentially higher risk of cavities pretty much only during childhood and the math seems incredibly clear to me. I feel like the only reason we haven’t banned adding it to water supplies is because people have a knee jerk reaction to anything that sounds even vaguely anti-vax nowadays.
The fact that until 10 years ago the US allowed significantly higher levels should be a really big deal to people.
I’m on reverse osmosis well water so it doesn’t matter to me personally, for what it’s worth.
IQ points is just an indicator that could be measured consistently. Who knows what else is going on.. and statistically (especially depending on the distribution) 2 IQ points is quite a lot. After all 50% of the population fall into the 20 point range in the middle..
Of course it comes down to whether the relationship actually exists. But picking a slightly higher risk of cavities when the other option is potential mental impairment (however mild) seems like a no-brainer..
Has this link been found to not exist in fluoride supplements or fluoride toothpastes?
I don't think it's such a no brainer if every health org is recommending fluoride, and some people think it's scary.
Nobody did any studies or experiments?
Also you are not supposed to eat toothpaste…
> don't think it's such a no brainer
Well obviously only if the relationship actually exists and there is enough evidence for it. How else could you interpret my comment?
> brainer if every health org is recommending fluoride
Is that true? e.g. throughout entire Europe for instance?
you're really genuinely shocked that people would get worked up over chemicals being added to their drinking water without their consent? chemicals which have not been conclusively proven to be non-toxic? chemicals which are already in toothpaste giving people the choice to use them anyway?
flouride naturally occurs in water all over the world, and if you don't want any chemicals in your water you should be drinking distilled water. Almost nobody does, because "chemicals in the water reeeeeee!!!" is just a mindless idiotic shreak, not anything insightful or debatable
>"chemicals in the water reeeeeee!!!"
having to resort to childish attempts like this essentially invalidates anything "insightful" you might want to say. if you can't see that manually adding safety-unproven chemicals to water without people's consent is a weird and unethical thing to do, then that's fine, but don't embarrass yourself and everyone else like this
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To straw man, you could argue that 1-2 IQ extra might have a large affect on the salary as everything is relative. If you are on the lower IQ scale, a ten point reduction would double your likelihood of doing crime.
I put in a spelling error in the above paragraph of 215 characters, you still understand it but what was your perception of me from this very small error?
The specifics of fluoride are low stakes.
The general idea of the government medicating the people writ large isn't low stakes.
In the US there are a lot of people who are of the opinion the government should just let people be.
Are those the people voting for the "have the government put restrictions on trans people" party?
I have a feeling it's not about "letting people be". It's about "let me be and screw over those I don't like"
If you live in the US, you'll meet a lot of genuinely good people on both sides of the more/less government debate.
Anyone who thinks this is a straightforward issue is dumb, frankly.
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Agree, it's a little bit like child Covid vaccinations. Not much evidence for either benefit or harm, recommended in the US but not most of Europe.
It’s not at all the same, that’s a terrible example. Child vaccinations help reduce the Rt, regardless of whether the benefit to the individual is significant. Statements to the contrary have just confused the public. (biochemist)
Not necessarily, because excessive boosting is associated with increased infection rate/RTlt: https://www.journalofinfection.com/article/S0163-4453(25)000...
Tell that to the European health agencies, I guess, they seem to be confused too.
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What Rt are you worried about in 2025?
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