Comment by packetlost
2 days ago
I unironically wish there was an enterprise version of Plan 9. I've been writing most of my scripts in `rc` (something my coworkers put up with because we use nix and I can pull it in automatically with dirnev) and it has been great.
I would worry less about other people being able to run rc scripts and more about them being able to read/edit them.
they're routinely very short, and the only non-obvious syntax for someone familiar with a C-like language is the ~ command and redirecting to stderr. They're pretty much always easier to read (and write) than bash scripts in general because of how little weird/surprising syntax there is. Not being a derivative of ALGOL has its perks.
Most scripts are write-once:read-never, especially if you actually implement -h/--help
> Most scripts are write-once:read-never, especially if you actually implement -h/--help
I guess the answer is always “it depends”, but that generally has never been my experience with most things. Are you over-engineering the shit out of every script to the degree the script itself is a Turing complete machine and with enough —-help flags anything is possible? Most 40+ year old Unix tools with a thousand flags have their limits and you have to script around them to achieve things you want.
In my experience, eventually a business need will arise that require you to change a script. Are your coworkers comfortable changing these scripts or are you in the mind set of “that’s a simple enough change, I’ll do it”
2 replies →
One benefit of rc is this[1]:
> The most important principle in rc’s design is that it’s not a macro processor. Input is never scanned more than once by the lexical and syntactic analysis code
I worked at a unix shop that deleted most of a working drive because a shell script was modified while it was running. Luckily they kept daily backups on tape. This was about 17 years ago.
[1] https://www.scs.stanford.edu/nyu/04fa/sched/readings/rc.pdf
Scanning input just is unrelated to the "modified while running" problem. The "modified while running" problem is a read-buffering problem.
For example, consider the following change:
If the shell's first read() reads 16 bytes (indicated above with "^"), then the file is changed, then the shell reads the rest; then the shell will see "echo $x; rm -rf /" regardless of whether or not it scans the input multiple times.
I am unfamiliar with the read-buffering done by either of the 2 main implementations of rc, and so am unable to comment on whether it does things to avoid this problem. But if it does do things to avoid it, those things are orthogonal to the "not a macro processor / input is never scanned more than once" thing.
Could you expand more on what you would like out of an "enterprise Plan 9"?
the distributed computing model is pretty nice in theory (maybe not in practice) and the uniform system APIs are also nice. The userspace tools in particular are just plain better (structured regex commands are quite a bit better than ed-style and I find myself using them far more frequently in vis than I do in vim, they're far more composable and intuitive).
The biggest thing is the heavy reliance on union file systems (and file systems in general) and an extremely simple syscall API. It's a heterogeneous-networked-node OS so it handles realistic workloads natively with primitives designed for it instead of piling complexity on top of Unix-like APIs (ie. Linux). I dunno, I just think a lot of the modern "cloud native" stack is unnecessary if you had an OS actually built for the workloads we have.
There aren't really union filesystems per se, the plan 9 kernel provides unions through its namespace model. In my opinion part of the reason why the userspace tools can be as nice as they are, are due to the use of file system interfaces and the simplistic syscall API. Could you elaborate more on the issues you see with the use of these?
In regards to using it for a "cloud native" stack, the issue is that people want to run code that isn't designed for Plan 9. You could build whatever backplane type thing you want out of plan 9 but the end goal is still likely to be to run some web app or REST api server. Unless someone does a great deal of effort to port all of those environments that people want (nodejs, modern python, etc) you're going to be stuck using a VM and losing a lot of the benefit.
This feels similar to what Joyent did with lxzones in SmartOS, where the backplane was solaris based but the apps they were running for clients were using Linux. It's hard to make the plan 9 backplane better enough to warrant dealing with integrating the guest and host environment.
6 replies →
It could be used to replace k8s-based deployments (also Docker Swarms, etc.) since system interfaces on Plan 9 are namespaced and containerized "out-of-the-box" as part of its basic design (and this is one of the most prominent additions compared to *NIX). It's not a hacked-on feature as with Linux.