I search for words, can even indicate I want search results with a keyword included and it will be ignored. And then I have to sift between what is the search result, and what is an ad.
And if I get another quora answer....
But, this post? it was a waste. We do some hand wavy stuff, come try us.
Fair point, I probably should have provided more context in the post.
MatterRank uses LLMs to rank pages based on criteria you provide it with, not SEO tricks. It’s not meant to replace Google, but helps when you're looking for something specific and don't want to wade through tons of results that you don't care about. Still early, but useful for deeper searches.
Transformer models like BERT have been lurking in Google search for a few years now (and non-transformer language models before that). The distinction between LLM and chatbot is pretty thin. Dismissing "chatbots with web access" when you are actually using LLMs is not a very clear or useful differentiation, even if the way you use a LLM really is different. More end-user control over results is a good thing, but there is an opportunity to engage much more clearly.
> I guess there's just too much data now to search stuff like that.
That seems extremely unlikely as the reason.
It's far more likely that some executives looked at the numbers and decided that removing search operators would make people more likely to click on ads, while leaving them in would make people click on the actual results that they were searching for.
gave it a shot, i like the concept, even though i suspect it'll cost like $2 a query to really get somewhere.
anyway, my test was to search for FOSS software, explicitly asking for "not big tech" and no ads. the contents of the results were fine, if repetitive - but i was a bit sad to see a lot of youtube and reddit in the results. does the " algorithm" not look at the actual domains?
Does it? I understand there are issues with spam in search, but assuming we don't know what we want is not at all the conclusion I draw from using search engines.
Yeah that's fair, "doesn't know what we want" might have been oversimplifying. Better phrasing would have been that there is a very hard limit on the context you're able to give when using a search engine. It's mainly keywords, and then maybe some tricks like `site:` or quotes.
I think you're right that there's limited context, but I'd still disagree on "doesn't know what you want". I think search engines know what users want within the scope of the context they're able to provide. There are two issues with that, one is the deeper examples you gave in another reply may be better, and the other being differentiation between legitimate search matches, and bad actors trying to match for things they shouldn't do.
For the former, I'm intrigued but unconvinced that it's what I actually want in a search engine.
For the latter, I imagine that's something that this search engine will need to contend with, although it could "just" be an LLM compute trade-off, where if you give enough results to an LLM to analyse you'll eventually find the good stuff. That said, SEO is going to rapidly become LLMEO and ruin the day again.
Credit to @ziftface — I should’ve included more examples in the original post. MatterRank is useful when you want results with specific qualitative traits that go beyond keyword matching. You can ask for stuff like “written by a woman,” “mentions these specific lines from a movie,” or “talks about X/Y/Z but avoids A/B.” Since it reads the full content, not just metadata or SEO signals, it lets you be a lot more precise in ways that traditional search engines just don’t support.
Is this kind of promotional post even allowed? It doesn't have any actual content that discusses how technically to make search better, only that MatterRank has solved it. If doing content marketing, remember to include some content.
It doesn't even explain why it's better than Perplexity.
Using an LLM isn’t the worst way to rank, but it’s pretty darn slow. The speed could be improved a lot by just distilling into deep neural nets though.
The results for me were fairly high quality and moderately relevant but I think they could be improved as well.
You get pretty far by just blocking low quality blogspam and Medium, which would be a lot faster and could even be done on the frontend with a chrome plugin.
Yeah LLMs were the easiest way to get a proof of context running, but replacing it with a specialized distilled model/classifier should hopefully make it way quicker.
As for the results, it's tough because we've made the deliberate decision to have no control over the reranking. What that means is that if your criteria is "written by a woman", for instance, then any result that meets that will be ranked equally at the top. In all engines I've built for myself, I have a relevance criteria that's weighted relative to how much I care that the result is exactly what I'm looking for. It's probably important to make that clearer to the end user.
I mean, it's not just search that assumes we don't know what we want. A huge amount of technology these days has shifted to telling us what to want rather than letting us obtain what we have independently decided we want.
I actually completely agree with this. Search is a good example, but in general it seems that general consensus has become that consumers don't know what they want, which is pretty frustrating, and probably a product of the success of the TikTok algorithm and similar software.
I'm hoping that as LLMs become more mainstream more functionality is built into tech that doesn't treat consumers as idiots. This is one stab at it, but there's so many other opportunities imo.
MatterRank is pretty slow still since it runs LLM evaluations on each webpage as markdown content. Wouldn't really consider it a Kagi alternative (which I haven't used but have heard great things about!), as that's more of a search engine in the traditional sense.
I think where MatterRank shines right now is for finding results where you wouldn't mind waiting an extra 20-30 seconds for an added layer of vetting, as opposed to just wanting a quick answer.
Having said that, we are definitely working on making it faster and more useful for everyday queries.
> I think where MatterRank shines right now is for finding results where you wouldn't mind waiting an extra 20-30 seconds for an added layer of vetting, as opposed to just wanting a quick answer.
I've not used it, but anecdotally, I can refine my own search query to get what I want, or conclude it doesn't exist, within 20-30s. Assuming ~5s per search to write, search, read, decide, that's 4-6 searches.
Do you think you're getting more value than 4 iterations on the initial search term? Are you always getting it in one search, or do you end up still needing to refine the search term, extending it beyond that 20-30s?
Give me a way to filter out results with ads on them please.
Edit (hn doesn’t let me post this fast): is finding places to buy shit really an issue? How many times in your life have you thought “damn I know what I want to buy, I just don’t know from which site to buy it”? That’s hard to imagine of anyone. This user story just seems like a problem made up by search indexes to court capital.
If you're referring to sponsored content, then you can actually use MatterRank to configure an engine to devalue content that's trying to sell you something or is sponsored.
If you mean pop-ups, MatterRank can't handle that at the moment because it evaluates markdown content, but it's something we're looking at adding. In the meantime, I'd recommend a good ad-blocker.
I don't want to argue for ads, but, as someone trying to cut out Amazon from my life, it genuinely is hard to figure out where else to buy stuff these days. Slightly less common things that nonetheless used to be stocked in any halfway decent electronics store just aren't any more.
Would you mind giving more details about your use case? I'm curious.
I've been Amazon-free for a while and generally I've had very good luck simply going directly to manufacturer's websites, but it seems like you might be searching for a class of products for which that strategy is ineffective?
Conversely, let me only see sites where I can buy something. Too much of my life is consumed by trying to see if something can be bought and if so how much it costs.
This is just an ad without any context?
Search could be better? Yes, yes it could.
I search for words, can even indicate I want search results with a keyword included and it will be ignored. And then I have to sift between what is the search result, and what is an ad.
And if I get another quora answer....
But, this post? it was a waste. We do some hand wavy stuff, come try us.
Fair point, I probably should have provided more context in the post.
MatterRank uses LLMs to rank pages based on criteria you provide it with, not SEO tricks. It’s not meant to replace Google, but helps when you're looking for something specific and don't want to wade through tons of results that you don't care about. Still early, but useful for deeper searches.
Transformer models like BERT have been lurking in Google search for a few years now (and non-transformer language models before that). The distinction between LLM and chatbot is pretty thin. Dismissing "chatbots with web access" when you are actually using LLMs is not a very clear or useful differentiation, even if the way you use a LLM really is different. More end-user control over results is a good thing, but there is an opportunity to engage much more clearly.
But often the problem "is" google, garbage in, garbage out
Search could be better if it was a paid service and the content got paid.
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I want a search engine that only returns results containing words I specify. Is that asking too much? Google is not that search engine.
I think google several years ago had gotten very good at matching on related concepts, but it just fell off a cliff after that.
Maybe try Kagi. I am pretty happy with the results.
I felt the same frustration: I just want keyword matching without any filtering. I'm building https://greppr.org/ to scratch that itch.
Isn’t that what quotes do?
I feel stupid for asking, but do quotes even do anything anymore? I feel like I try them and it just gives me the same results.
3 replies →
No. But it's what verbatim mode does.
remember when "Human speech" -robots -alien worked? those were the days. I guess there's just too much data now to search stuff like that.
> I guess there's just too much data now to search stuff like that.
That seems extremely unlikely as the reason.
It's far more likely that some executives looked at the numbers and decided that removing search operators would make people more likely to click on ads, while leaving them in would make people click on the actual results that they were searching for.
2 replies →
Use Google verbatim mode.
https://www.google.com/search?q=beer&tbs=li:1
That is unbelievably better. The ads are even off to the side!
gave it a shot, i like the concept, even though i suspect it'll cost like $2 a query to really get somewhere.
anyway, my test was to search for FOSS software, explicitly asking for "not big tech" and no ads. the contents of the results were fine, if repetitive - but i was a bit sad to see a lot of youtube and reddit in the results. does the " algorithm" not look at the actual domains?
I have been playing with idea of one big SQLite for domains. I can search it relatively fast, find things related to "amiga", "emulator" etc.
https://github.com/rumca-js/Internet-Places-Database
I must admit, that this is a difficult task. There are many domains for "hotels", "casinos", so I have to protect myself, just as google agains spam.
> It assumes we don't know what we want.
Does it? I understand there are issues with spam in search, but assuming we don't know what we want is not at all the conclusion I draw from using search engines.
Yeah that's fair, "doesn't know what we want" might have been oversimplifying. Better phrasing would have been that there is a very hard limit on the context you're able to give when using a search engine. It's mainly keywords, and then maybe some tricks like `site:` or quotes.
I think you're right that there's limited context, but I'd still disagree on "doesn't know what you want". I think search engines know what users want within the scope of the context they're able to provide. There are two issues with that, one is the deeper examples you gave in another reply may be better, and the other being differentiation between legitimate search matches, and bad actors trying to match for things they shouldn't do.
For the former, I'm intrigued but unconvinced that it's what I actually want in a search engine.
For the latter, I imagine that's something that this search engine will need to contend with, although it could "just" be an LLM compute trade-off, where if you give enough results to an LLM to analyse you'll eventually find the good stuff. That said, SEO is going to rapidly become LLMEO and ruin the day again.
Credit to @ziftface — I should’ve included more examples in the original post. MatterRank is useful when you want results with specific qualitative traits that go beyond keyword matching. You can ask for stuff like “written by a woman,” “mentions these specific lines from a movie,” or “talks about X/Y/Z but avoids A/B.” Since it reads the full content, not just metadata or SEO signals, it lets you be a lot more precise in ways that traditional search engines just don’t support.
Too many steps, why do I have to signup? Why do I have to create an engine.
Remove all of this, just let me directly use your app, I want to search and create engines on the fly.
I don't need to save them for future uses, if I am not going to use your app even once.
If you want this to take off, it needs to just work, no extra steps unless I want to.
Is this kind of promotional post even allowed? It doesn't have any actual content that discusses how technically to make search better, only that MatterRank has solved it. If doing content marketing, remember to include some content.
It doesn't even explain why it's better than Perplexity.
Using an LLM isn’t the worst way to rank, but it’s pretty darn slow. The speed could be improved a lot by just distilling into deep neural nets though.
The results for me were fairly high quality and moderately relevant but I think they could be improved as well.
You get pretty far by just blocking low quality blogspam and Medium, which would be a lot faster and could even be done on the frontend with a chrome plugin.
Yeah LLMs were the easiest way to get a proof of context running, but replacing it with a specialized distilled model/classifier should hopefully make it way quicker.
As for the results, it's tough because we've made the deliberate decision to have no control over the reranking. What that means is that if your criteria is "written by a woman", for instance, then any result that meets that will be ranked equally at the top. In all engines I've built for myself, I have a relevance criteria that's weighted relative to how much I care that the result is exactly what I'm looking for. It's probably important to make that clearer to the end user.
I mean, it's not just search that assumes we don't know what we want. A huge amount of technology these days has shifted to telling us what to want rather than letting us obtain what we have independently decided we want.
I actually completely agree with this. Search is a good example, but in general it seems that general consensus has become that consumers don't know what they want, which is pretty frustrating, and probably a product of the success of the TikTok algorithm and similar software.
I'm hoping that as LLMs become more mainstream more functionality is built into tech that doesn't treat consumers as idiots. This is one stab at it, but there's so many other opportunities imo.
How do you think that LLMs will help that?
3 replies →
Isn't it super expensive to run an LLM on each result?
kagi vs matterrank anyone?
MatterRank is pretty slow still since it runs LLM evaluations on each webpage as markdown content. Wouldn't really consider it a Kagi alternative (which I haven't used but have heard great things about!), as that's more of a search engine in the traditional sense.
I think where MatterRank shines right now is for finding results where you wouldn't mind waiting an extra 20-30 seconds for an added layer of vetting, as opposed to just wanting a quick answer.
Having said that, we are definitely working on making it faster and more useful for everyday queries.
> I think where MatterRank shines right now is for finding results where you wouldn't mind waiting an extra 20-30 seconds for an added layer of vetting, as opposed to just wanting a quick answer.
I've not used it, but anecdotally, I can refine my own search query to get what I want, or conclude it doesn't exist, within 20-30s. Assuming ~5s per search to write, search, read, decide, that's 4-6 searches.
Do you think you're getting more value than 4 iterations on the initial search term? Are you always getting it in one search, or do you end up still needing to refine the search term, extending it beyond that 20-30s?
2 replies →
So there's a cross encoder of some kind which accepts a prompt for how to score?
The last thing I want is a search engine where I have to create an account to use it.
You don't have to create an account
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Give me a way to filter out results with ads on them please.
Edit (hn doesn’t let me post this fast): is finding places to buy shit really an issue? How many times in your life have you thought “damn I know what I want to buy, I just don’t know from which site to buy it”? That’s hard to imagine of anyone. This user story just seems like a problem made up by search indexes to court capital.
Edit2: Kagi is great. I'm a full subscriber.
>> How many times in your life have you thought “damn I know what I want to buy, I just don’t know from which site to buy it”?
I find I do it quite a lot. When I was researching solar. When I needed some actuators recently. Now I'm looking for a trailer. And so on.
Obviously not groceries, but whenever um investigating something new I find commercial sites to be very helpful.
If you're referring to sponsored content, then you can actually use MatterRank to configure an engine to devalue content that's trying to sell you something or is sponsored.
If you mean pop-ups, MatterRank can't handle that at the moment because it evaluates markdown content, but it's something we're looking at adding. In the meantime, I'd recommend a good ad-blocker.
Kagi lets you sort by ad/tracker count. You can also downrank or block results from sites you know to be particularly bad with ads, but good at SEO.
I don't want to argue for ads, but, as someone trying to cut out Amazon from my life, it genuinely is hard to figure out where else to buy stuff these days. Slightly less common things that nonetheless used to be stocked in any halfway decent electronics store just aren't any more.
Would you mind giving more details about your use case? I'm curious.
I've been Amazon-free for a while and generally I've had very good luck simply going directly to manufacturer's websites, but it seems like you might be searching for a class of products for which that strategy is ineffective?
3 replies →
> Give me a way to filter out results with ads on them please.
Use Brave Search with Goggles (https://search.brave.com/goggles/discover). It's great.
Conversely, let me only see sites where I can buy something. Too much of my life is consumed by trying to see if something can be bought and if so how much it costs.
Was the home page vibe coded? The "Take me to Tutorial" button does nothing.
Actually the tutorial was breaking the homepage so took it down while it was being fixed. Should be back up now.