Comment by cosmic_cheese
8 days ago
Framework’s offerings are interesting, but after having gotten used to the solid rigidity of M-series MacBooks and X1 series Thinkpads, the level of flex in the Framework 13 is a major issue for me. It’s difficult to justify for the price, plus PCBs and repeated flex stress don’t mix nicely.
I think it’s time for either Framework or a third party partner to sell a new chassis that’s compatible with the FW13’s mainboard, but focuses on a more sturdy, premium feel, even if that means doing away with the modular port cards. I suspect that mainboards housed in such a chassis will fare better over time than their original housing counterparts.
They are bendy as hell - I have a couple of colleagues with them.
Also on that I think they should do away with the modular port things anyway. They're a suboptimial use of space and limit the total number of ports you can have. The real problem is that the ports on most laptops are soldered directly to the motherboard which results in extreme expense if you kill one. Just give us some replaceable ones like the current MacBook line. They're on an easy to remove daughterboard and purchaseable online.
As I see it, an aluminum slab MNT Reform Next[1] would be a better Thinkpad replacement than a Framework (from a build and reparability standpoint).
[1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next
Every time I see any of those MNT machines in pictures, it makes my fingers start frantically typing out lengthy rants whether it's about internals or externals or even choices of colors.
Yeah I respect the project and mission but it’s not for me for various reasons.
If it were at least 14" instead of 12.5".
Oh man, the MNT Reform looks _so_ awesome!
Except for that price. Yikes. Heck of a barrier to entry for an unproven product. I do wish them well, but as we call for more modularity in laptop design, we can't forget the core value of keeping it affordable for the masses.
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MNT reforms get more and more appealing by the day as I’ve become increasingly disillusioned by the state of current hardware offerings.
I have an M4 MacBook from work and a personal Framework 13. The MacBook certainly feels more solid, but I wouldn't call the Framework flimsy, and it still has a premium feel.
I made the mistake of packing my MacBook (at the time an M1 model), my Framework, and my iPad Pro 12.9 (with keyboard case) in a single laptop bag for a work trip a while back. The Framework got bent around the power button in a way that made the button get jammed; I bought a new input cover for ~$100 and replaced it in five minutes. My iPad's keyboard case now has keys that occasionally get stuck, so I'll probably replace that at some point. My MacBook seemed fine at the time, but it developed an intermittent trackpad button jam that could have been caused by that (or maybe a piece of dust).
Interestingly the Macbook trackpad does not have physical buttons. It uses haptic feedback to simulate the feeling of a "click", but in reality there is no button which could be interrupted by dust.
I did have a Macbook trackpad fail in a similar way, where the "button" seemed to intermittently fail to click. It turned out my battery was swelling (see /r/spicypillows) and this impacted the trackpad operation.
On topic, I took the Macbook with swollen battery in to the Apple Store and they had to replace the entire keyboard+battery assembly as a unit because the battery was not replaceable.
MacBooks haven’t had mechanical trackpads in over a decade now — they’re solid glass with really good haptics to make it feel like they move, so I doubt what you’re experiencing with yours is a mechanical jam. It’s more likely that the haptic motor is malfunctioning occasionally or there’s something that’s causing the process in charge of haptics to stall.
My ZBook from 2014 is apparently made of sturdy plastic but the keyboard is built on a metal base and it fits in metal hooks on the chassis. It does not flex at all.
The problem with this machine is that sooner or later I'll run out of reasonably priced keyboards (they wear and the mechanisms under the most used keys break), maybe no more support for the graphic card neither from Nvidia nor from the open source driver, and go forbids if some RAM burns. Perhaps RAM from that age it still available but historically the prices hike when only a few desperate people look for it and have to pay a premium.
So eventually I'll have to buy a new laptop because of maintenance: hardware parts and software updates. I'm betting on another 2 or 3 years. There is nothing I particularly like on the market now but this laptop was a compromise too. Serviceability and 3 buttons on the touchpad vs a useless number pad that shifts the center of the keyboard to the left of the screen.
I suspect you could get a local machinist to make you a metal base, then find mechanical key switches and the other parts and thus make a new replacement keyboard to your specs. Keyboards are not very complex so some effort can get you a new one to fit.
My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets hot etc. I am looking for a cooler machine with ThinkPad durability. I can't choose Framework because a) they don't ship where I am b) they won't honor warranty if I use forwarders c) none of their offerings have a comparably durable config.
Maybe they should think about a FrameTough line.
> My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets hot
Not clear to me if you mean always or that it changed. Do suggest to check the thermal paste, plus clear out dust in fans and heatsink fins.
It always had aggressive fans but yes I do plan to open it up for cleanup (I do clean the fan grills with a soft brush regularly).
I was sad when I bought a new 10th or 11th gen X1 carbon to replace my 4th gen. I configured them essentially the same, second-to-fastest processor, FHD display, no touch screen.
The 4th gen almost never kicked its fans on, especially in Linux. The new one gets far hotter, even at idle. Lenovo removed the traditional sleep mode in favor of modern sleep, which causes it to die with the lid closed in a couple days compared to over a week with the 4th gen.
My 6th gen carbon almost never gets hot as well. Maybe the gen you have has a CPU with a higher TDP? They got better again recently.
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Someone on the subreddit was talking about how they plan to make a high-end carbon fiber chassis for the 13. That was a few weeks ago - I don't believe they've posted anything since their initial post.
As a 13 owner (only thinkpad 13, nobody talks about it but I think is one of the best pieces of hardware I have ever owned) this would be fantastic. I would love to have my 13 for life. I don't know if my 13 is able to be upgraded like a desktop PC like other thinkpads, but adding a carbon fiber chassis would be like fresh air.
My comment was referencing the Framework 13, not the ThinkPad :)
Thermal conductivity?
imo the modular ports are a massive longevity feature. charging cable ports are one of the most common laptop killers, so making that modular is a huge step up
The modular ports are just USB-C in a cutaway. You can plug your charger into the USB-C port, or into a USB-C module that plugs into the USB-C port. Totally underwhelming. (I had a Framework 16 as a work machine at a previous job.) I definitely still make use of USB-A, and I will for some time - but only when I'm at home plugging in my keyboard and mouse, so I could be perfectly happy with a USB-C hub like I use with my current laptop. I want a durable computer which I can upgrade the RAM, motherboard, storage, replace the battery, screen etc over the next seventeen years so that I don't know when one computer begins and the next ends. I don't want impractical USB-C ports that I have to pay extra for and which limit the durability of the system. To be clear: I've never had a laptop whose charging port died, but if it was something I'd rate as likely, I'd would much rather have a good system and replace the bottom cover kit, rather than a compromised system and replace a protective plug.
I’m not sure what you lose by the expansion bay port being an actual standard port rather than something proprietary I’m assuming is what you would prefer? There is a grip system where the expansion ports lock in, and the ports aren’t just hanging by the USB-c male, I have not heard of instances where the inner port fails. In fact, it’s pretty convenient and has come in handy for me that in a pinch you can remove the expansion modules and have extra usb-c ports.
Modular ports are good, but I’m not sure I need to be able to hot swap them.
Larger port module plates that bolt into the sides of the chassis with a few screws would be just as good from a longevity standpoint, would enable better rigidity, and would allow the FW13 to host a considerably higher number of ports.
I kinda both agree and disagree...
A screw or two definitely wouldn't have impeded the handful of times I've moved my 16's parts around, not even in the slightest, it's just not that frequent. And I don't usually carry other kinds of ports + wouldn't be able to have the screwdriver too, it's usually "I have them all" or "I have none" and then all I can realistically do is swap sides. I'd have zero complaints with some standard screws.
... but tool-less lowers the barrier to literally zero, which is pretty big when you need it. It's a very different mental-space: absolutely zero concern.
... and if they were smaller, they'd be incompatible, and it'd be harder to build custom ones due to even less internal space.
or even just keeping the ports on a separate PCB would be a help so you dont have to replace the whole motherboard when the usb port breaks
i bought maybe 5 differnet thinkpads over the years and never had an issue with the old charging port. with the last usb-c thinkpad i got i had to buy 2 new chargers and both of those i repaired a few times as well. the connector just wiggles around too much and the cables are also too rigid so when it gets snagged on something the connector ends up bending in the port before the cable bends.
in the end i just got rid of it before the actual port on the motherboard got completely damaged
Not really these days, most laptops have 2-4 usb c ports that you can change through so you have redundancy if one fails
Apparently the flex on the 16 is bad enough that the pogo pin connector for the keyboard deck loses contact every time you pick the laptop up.
At least the M1~2 series Macbooks scratched the screen with the keyboard. Mines did, and asking second hand resailers it was a very common issue.
Rigidity is only for the main body, not the screen part.
FWIW, I’ve been toting around the 16” M-series models since they launched and recently picked up a 13” Air and have yet to see this occur. Haven’t heard reports of it from coworkers or friends either. Not saying it doesn’t happen, but I suspect there’s a particular action or pattern of behavior that makes it more likely, such as placing it under heavy objects or packing it in tightly with books or something like that.
Yes, it's not a fatality.
For context, that's what I'm talking about with the kind of patterns when it happens: https://discussions.apple.com/thread/254769961?sortBy=rank
> packing it in tightly with books
Which is basically equivalent to "putting it in a backpack" to me. I brought my last one in a lot of places, putting it with an iPad in the laptop compartment, the iPad was fine, the MacBook screen wasn't. For comparison I have an Asus X13 now, same use case (the iPad became a Surface Pro) for the same one year+ period now, and the screen is still perfect.
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I've been looking for a replacement laptop and this issue is making me look away from any future Macbooks.
Does anyone have experience if the issue been resolved in more recent designs, or is this something Apple users are now expected to live with?
Using a thin microfibre cloth between keyboard and screen prevents this.
Setting a microfibre cloth every time the laptop is bagged is much of a PITA to be honest. The lazier solution is a screen protector, albeit screen viewing angle or reflection come into consideration.
Personally I moved away from macs, so choosing a laptop with a touch screen was the best option: screens are tough enough, won't scratch under most circumstances, and can be wiped with anything short of diamond dust.
Classic apple apologia: hey user who spent ££££, you're doing it wrong!
Reminds me of that iPhone model where they issued guidance on how to hold it because people lost signal during calls.
Requiring special care for a common usage, that's a hallmark of bad design.
Only if Apple provides a stream of clean microfibre cloths and someone to lay it out for me and close the laptop with care.
Otherwise they'd better lay off the drugs that generated that thinness fetish and make sturdy devices again.
(Note that i don't see any button traces on my m3 mbpro yet. it's close to a year old. And I'm not the kind that keeps the tv remote in the plastic bag that it was delivered in, probably the opposite.)
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