Comment by quailfarmer
8 days ago
The tightness of hardware integration isn't a bug, it's genuinely a feature; In fact, it's the defining feature that makes Apple hardware great. Socketed RAM, CPU, and Storage just weren't worth the tradeoffs, namely size, weight, cost, and performance. Including those modular interfaces just wasn't worth it when the internal interfaces would be obsolete within 5 years, and the average user was replacing sub-components 0 times over the life of the device.
The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just not an required feature, any more than the user of a car being able to easily hot-swap the engine. The right level of integration provides a tradeoff the maximizes reliability, cost, performance, and repair. A professional can still replace almost any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home.
I really hope Framework can continue to develop hardware with documented repairability, without falling for the myth that tight integration and quality are mutually exclusive.
If being able to replace a part requires me to have a screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms.
Right now, having devices which require both expertise and expensive machinery means that the cost of going to someone to repair it will increase over 10 folds, making a full replacement a financial and sound choice.
If my CPU doesn't last for 10 years but I can change it myself in minutes, I would rather that than throwing away everything else I still love and is still functional just for promised extended reliability (which is just a matter of statistics and profit margins at the end of the day).
> If being able to replace a part requires me to have a screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms.
You have to understand though that people like us are a tiny minority.
Increasingly I hate creating waste, especially e-waste, and so I'll tinker with things to get them working or upgrade them, but most people don't want the hassle.
I don't think many throw away their remote controller when the batteries run out. So why do we do that for laptops? Because it makes them 2cm thinner?
I believe this change benefits 100% the companies imposing them, consumers always have a tech-enthusiast around to ask if needs be.
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I have taught at least three people how to do simple repairs and upgrades on laptops.
Anyone that can read and use their brain can strip a laptop down to components and reassemble it.
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> A professional can still replace almost any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home.
Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead.
While the battery might be the only thing with a fixed lifetime, other components often also break. I was unlucky and owned a ThinkPad with one soldered on RAM module and one socketed slot to be able to upgrade the RAM, but that didn't help the day that the soldered on RAM died on me.
It's not just price. The market for this expertise is also not very deep and liquid. If I have to get a laptop repaired, what are my choices? Send it off to the manufacturer/importer if it's still under warranty, and get it back in maybe two months. Drop it off at a shop that does also phone repairs and hope they don't wreck it?
Realistically I don't know anyone with my specific kind of problem who's used their services before, so I don't really know their reputation. It's not like walking into a supermarket, or even getting a car repaired where you have some sense of the likelihood it will take as long as they say, cost as much as they say and actually succeed. There's much greater information asymmetry.
Of course, given how unattractive it is to get something repaired, more people will be inclined to just buy something new, resulting in less demand for repairs, resulting in less supply, less attractive repair market, etc.
Repairability (at home, by relative morons) also means more repair shops, because less repairability means death of a repairs market.
Apple is actually really fast with repairs. I got my MBP back in about a week when I sent it in under the limited warranty, not even Apple Care.
>Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking about buying a new device instead.
This is generally a problem in taxation than the devices. Consider I want to have an electrician fix my broken wallsocket:
>Billed for 100€/hour
>Out of which expenses for moving using a workcar, calculating by officially recognized tax administration car wear value 0,59€/km for 5km both ways, so ~6€, 94€ remains
>VAT is 25,5%, leaving you with ~70€
>Paying for mandatory employer's portion of pension 17,5%, leaving us with ~57,75€
Now the employee gets 57,75€, out of which following are deducted:
>Income tax for average electrician: 26%, ~15€
>Employee's part of mandatory pension: 7,15%, ~ 4,1€
>Municipal taxes: ~8% depending on municipality ~ 4,6€
So 57,75€ - 23,7€ = ~34€
There are also various single or partial percent taxes that slightly affect the outcome, and companies often want some sort of profit instead of directly giving 100% to the single employee.
That said, I've a MacPro 3.1 in production (also 17 years now – always up), which is from Apple's era of easily (or even hot) swappable parts. Apart from failing 3rd party RAM, no issues ever. – And I'm probably going to upgrade the drives to SSD (still HDD) this year, since you can still get new upgrade parts for its ancient busses.
(And for the failing RAM: open the hood, a LED tells you which strip is failing, swap it, close, go on… The build quality is quite amazing, BTW.)
I'm a huge Thinkpad fan. I'm an even bigger MacBook fan.
None of my MacBook Pros ever had any issues, and I used my last MacBook for 9 years. I could keep using it with Linux instead of MacOS, but I think almost a decade of use is plenty of value for me.
There were recalls and scandals with the MacBook Pro over the years, but nothing that other vendors also didn't see, and that wouldn't have required the same exact parts being replaced. I'm thinking of the GPU issues with certain MacBooks. The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo.
I had a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon with the HiDPI screen that was absolutely awful, requiring replacement multiple times. Each time, the moron from Unisys that Lenovo sent to do the on-site repair would return me with a laptop that was poorly reassembled, and with new problems due to the tech's ineptitude. The same dude did service for Lenovo servers, and he once dropped a server that needed a fan replaced on the floor. Talk about fragile.
Thinkpads are great, and the oldest ones are still solid to use, but to say that MacBooks are fragile ignores that Thinkpads too are fragile.
>The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo.
Sorry, but this is a joke. "any other vendor did not care to stand behind their product"? Give me a break.
Apple has been time and again the champion of denying issues with their products until lawsuits forced their hand, often settling without admitting wrongdoing. Bendgate, Batterygate, MBP nVidia, MBP AMD, Butterfly keyboard, just off the top of my head. (Again: My criticism here is about how Apple handled them.)
"You're holding it wrong" is a meme for a reason (that didn't result in a lawsuit, though IIRC)
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> Apple's era of easily (or even hot) swappable parts.
This. It existed. The laptops still commanded enthusiasm, felt great, capable, and solid without being too heavy, and had swappable RAM and disk. Keyboard and battery swap were screwdriver set DIYs. Heck, the old Pismos had hot swappable battery and drive bays.
I'm still frequently using a MacBook Pro 11,3. Only lets you swap the drive but that by itself is a great point of flexibility.
The M series does amazing things which have their own merits, but the particular set of tradeoffs aren't inevitable.
The "sacrifices must be made" idea apparently sacrifices recall of other possibilities first.
> failing 3rd party RAM
Unless you're Samsung, almost all RAM is 3rd party. It's either Sammsung, SK Hynix, or Micron.
Since the early 1990s, I had never a single Apple factory provided RAM fail, but certainly severals from 3rd parties – in the very same machines. And, of course, I've been too greedy to pay the premium… (But, in the end-run, this has probably been more expensive and certainly more of a hassle.)
I think it's an attitude worth challenging. The minerals required to build these laptops are limited, and one day we will have to realize this and care for what we own.
Easily swappable components also increase resources consumption. We don't necessary want or need to be able to fix all the parts of our laptops or cars (or shoes!) at home, but we definitely want and need a local professional to be able to do so for a reasonable cost.
Chips have a limited lifespan too. It doesn't matter if you can swap a module in your laptop, at some point all those chips will need to be recycled.
> Socketed RAM
CUDIMM is changeable and fast.
> The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just not an required feature
Mostly because people seem to have forgotten that it was possible. Often laptops are slow to due either a too full disk and/or not enough memory. It used to be more common to upgrade those. But apparently that knowledge/skill is forgotten and it's now more custom to buy a new device.
Being able to change those saves money IMO.
It's faster, but a big reason apple silicon is ahead is because the memory is co-packaged on an MCM. This is the direction things are going.
I noticed I made an error when remembering the memory type I saw a while ago.
I meant the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(memory_module)
That's a way to have the memory close, but still being able to change it (without e.g. hot air station or something).
Not sure about that, although having those fixed short traces probably helps with speed, considering the stupid DDR5 negotiation on boot.
The real reason however is that going up SoC SKUs at apple gives you more memory channels. Those bandwidth increases you see in specs are because of that, not because the memory is soldered.
People as in the general population were not doing it, just us weirdos.
I funded my early career years by doing IT for home users of all sorts of expertise and budget and I feel like I got a decent gauge at what the average user did during the replaceable hardware era.
The people in the middle class and below would end up with such a shit device out of the gate (those 400-600usd laptops at the time, lower outside of the us), that by the time they started complaining about slowness, the upgradeable things did not make a difference. 1 to 2gb ram with a shit Celeron? Hardly worth the money. Bottom shelf Core2duos, overheating, cracking hinges, etc.
Not to mention that even then not all laptops were very standard in the way they were built. Taking one apart could be very time consuming and they would pay by the hour for me to do it, so after labor it was above what the device was worth and it would only buy them a few months of time at most. You do that once and you realize next time you’ll get a desktop.
The richer people would just get MacBooks and only call me for software stuff.
Companies had thinkpads and once purchased would never go out the standarized build. Just swap them when out of warranty, or at the time most would actually work at a desk with a desktop and leave work at work.
CAMM was not good enough to saturate the memory bandwidth of AMD Strix Halo. Imagine telling people to use a standard that is already dead on arrival for top end machines
Nah, personally? I know it’s possible, I’ve done it, and I just do not care anymore.
not worth it
It's certainly not worth it. I don't think that, for laptops, RAM requirements are increasing nearly as fast as they did 10 years ago. I spec 64GB for my laptops today, and if I could have afforded it, I would have specced 64GB 10 years ago too.
For storage in particular, iBoff made an adapter for NAND chips that places them on a carrier board: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3N-z-Y8cuw
The whole setup (allegedly) fits inside original chassis, too, and disk speeds are about the same. So the only real tradeoffs for Apple are cost and the fact that user can swap in third party parts instead of paying obscene prices Apple charges for spec upgrades.
The physical socket also introduces a new point of failure. In the olden days there was often "ram was bad but taking it out and reseating it in the socket fixed it", which can be avoided by just having it be on the same physical chip.
Since display technology does not update as fast as CPU technology, and keyboard technology rarely updates anymore at all, you might still expect the entire mainboard assembly to be upgradeable.
Would certainly be more "green."
Sad but true. Most people don't do much with the things they own, even if they can. Cars get serviced when they are told to, by someone else. No modifications are done. It's a weird thing to me because you get the downsides of ownership (liability for servicing and repairs) but none of the upsides.
I wish more people took direct control over their lives. But many are just happy to not think and put up with whatever they get.
>Cars [...] No modifications are done
In a lot of places that is highly illegal
Really? Where? In the UK it's legal as long as it still passes MOT, but it should be declared to your insurer.
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