Comment by mcv
4 days ago
I wonder if the fact that we're not hired to write code, is also the reason we're not paid as much as some other roles. This is my big frustration: that senior programmers (in NL at least) are not paid as much as managers, POs, various kinds of architects, and even scrum masters.
A couple of years ago, I was freelancing for a company where I wrote a lot of excellent code. They had a bunch of data they wanted to do something with, but weren't entirely sure what or how, so I did that for them. Connected, visualized it, made it fast, and they loved it. And so did I. It was fun work, I talked to a lot of people about what they wanted and needed, and delivered that.
My freelance period ended, but I wasn't ready to leave this project yet, so I became an employee, but that turned out to be a massive step back in terms of income. Despite the fact that I worked closely with lots of stakeholders and solved complex problems for them, their internal rules didn't allow them to pay me as more than a code monkey. I felt all the non-code work I did wasn't being appreciated. Nor the code work.
I left, they ruined the application (it's apparently slow as molasses now), and now I'm about to go back. I guess I've made peace with the fact that they don't pay programmers as much as I think they should. (It's not actually bad pay, just not as much as non-programmers get.) But mostly, it was a fun project that taught me a lot, and I want more of that.
This is the general culture in Europe. Techies do not get promoted and do not even have a possibility to grow to management. Everything is run by humanities people and we do not even have the right words to describe this situation, although some voiced their concerns for many years, see e.g. The Two Cultures [1] from 1959.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Two_Cultures
Hang on, why should this even be the goal? I really do want to question the premise of this kind of ladder in the first place. You got someone with a really good skill, one that is critical to your operations and you... want to put them in charge of people rather than keep doing what they're doing? You can just keep promoting people with whatever direction you want them to go in. It is all arbitrary and made up anyways. So why not keep promoting them in a direction where you still benefit from those technical skills?
ever work for a manager that barely understood what you do, or how it’s done? Been there, done that. Never again…
Engineers shouldn’t be _forced_ into management but the option should be encouraged if they have the aptitude for it.
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Nope.
I do not say that experts have to be put in charge of people instead of doing what they're doing.
I rather say that experts should be in charge of what they are doing.
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Techies can get into management, but they stop programming if they do. I've been told I could get into a higher pay scale if I took on managerial or administrative tasks that I'm bad at and have nothing to do with programming. I'd like to be appreciated for the stuff I'm good at, not for doing stuff I'm bad at.
That's exactly the point. The expectation is that techies stop being techies if want to have a career.
This is exactly why we can't innovate in Europe.
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Eng Manager here. At previous jobs I constantly had this assignment of "stop coding and only do code reviews". This to me is incredibly short-sighted as my code reviews are gonna be shit if I don't code.
Also managing a team of even 10 developers was the easiest job I ever had. Hire well, treat them well, talk with them routinely, solve conflicts, allow them to explore things.
The hard part of the job is of course functioning as a therapist for disorganised power-grabbing product people and shielding my team from their shenanigans. I'm so tired of it.
Every bad engineering manager I had two characteristics: they never have time to code but also never have to talk to me or any other employee.
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European societies are extremely class based which is brutally visible in UK, France, Netherlands, even Germany. INSEAD and other MBAs see techies as washing machine repairmen.
I think it is deeper than the theory of class struggle.
France rebuilt its educational system under Napoléon to teach science to bright kids from all backgrounds.
Fast-forward 200 years, it degraded into a system that teaches anachronistic humanities to smart and docile kids of upper middle classes.
P.S. For non-French, I am talking about the system of Grandes écoles [1]
[1] https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grande_%C3%A9cole
Netherland is actually extremely egalitarian. Managers are often just one of the team, you address everybody informally, we're all equals, etc. Except in pay. And especially in larger organizations. Managers and people on track to management are seen as the shit. Programmers are paid fairly well compared to the average job, but even if you're single-handedly pulling an important project, you're never going to make the same as people who push numbers, papers and money.
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>so I became an employee, but that turned out to be a massive step back in terms of income. Despite the fact that I worked closely with lots of stakeholders and solved complex problems for them, their internal rules didn't allow them to pay me as more than a code monkey.
Surely there was a negotiation step before signing contracts? What happened there? What was the blocker that did not "allow" them to change their own internal rules that they themselves control? Surely there is a way to do that.
>I left, they ruined the application (it's apparently slow as molasses now), and now I'm about to go back
Then state what you want before going back, if it's important for them they will find a way. Don't accept these kinds of zero effort "oh our policy doesn't allow us to pay you more" explanations.
I interpret "our policy doesn't allow it" as "I don't want to work here".
I normally do too, but in this case I did want to work there. And apparently I do again.
I negotiated my ass off, made a lot of good arguments, and everybody understood where I was coming from, but still wouldn't budge an inch. Maybe I should have walked away. In fact, I did, a couple of months later. But now I'm coming back again.
We'll see how it goes. Maybe I'll succeed at opening up higher pay scales for programmers, maybe I'll leave again after a year or so, or maybe I'll actually find happiness doing something I enjoy.
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I think it's easy for the decision-makers to take programming talent for granted because they can't see it or estimate what it can do. If my manager comes to me with a task, he may not even know if the task is possible. If it turns out to be relatively simple and I kick out the solution in an hour, he's impressed, but he's also "learned" this this stuff is easier than he thought. That shifts his mental window of what's possible in X hours. Every time he thinks, "That must have been easy after all," the more he's likely to devalue what he thinks the work should cost. A smart manager will know better, but many don't.
We could combat that tendency by taking a longer time than necessary on some tasks, basically loafing to make our work look harder, but who wants to play that game?
Instead of loafing, you could also collect more context. Talk to various stakeholders to better understand the context of the problem. Read about company policies or market developments that made this necessary.
Boring stuff, I admit (the reading at least; I enjoy talking to stakeholders), but it can give you a much deeper understanding of what you're working on.
I agree with your advice but have to remark that often times stakeholders are not open to talk to techies. I loved those who were but most weren't.
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Your story feels unfinished. :(
Advice: ask for more money or don't accept an offer. They should not by any means get the message that they can keep getting away with paying smaller salaries.