Comment by aredox
8 days ago
As a French I used to think too, "what's the big deal", "it has never been an issue here". But that's because we are used to it and getting an ID is easy and almost automatic. Whereas in a country like the US, it means missing several days of work, driving potentially hundreds of kilometers, and their geographic segregation means it's easy to make getting an ID harder for black people than for whites.
As a European I also find insane elections are held on workdays (in France it is always on Sundays), that you may have to wait in line for hours to vote, that voting stations may be hours from where you live, etc.
> As a European I also find insane elections are held on workdays
That's not really an issue, if you have enough polling stations. Denmark typically have elections on a Tuesday (but can technically be any day of the week). We have 80%+ turnout, one of the highest in the world, for countries without mandatory voting. The day of the week doesn't matter, IF you ensure that it sufficiently easy for people to vote.
If you actively try to make it inconvenient/impossible for people to vote, then it doesn't matter if it's on a Sunday. My take is that part of the US political system need as few voters as possible to turn up in order to have a chance of winning, so they will make it as complicated and inconvenient as they need it to be.
In a country where "some" people work two or three jobs to make ends meet, Sundays vs. workdays does matter.
I do enjoy the idea of making election days days off, days to celebrate. But yes, it usually takes me about five minutes to vote in the Netherlands, so I don't really need the day off.
You need an ID to do basic tasks in USA as well, everyone with a normal life has them.
Around 21 million eligible voters in the US do not have an ID that is acceptable under their state's laws.
And exactly what obstacles they are having with getting one?
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A google search tells me that around half of people in the USA do not hold a passport. Domestically most people rely on drivers licence as their ID.
> Domestically most people rely on drivers licence as their ID
So show your drivers license at the voting booth? Why is that unacceptable?
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It's getting complicated for married women. Every name change since birth has to be documented to get a Real ID.
A black woman jumping between three jobs to make ends meet in Alabama doesn't have a "normal" life, then. Too bad for her! And for millions like her, in a country where elections are decided by single-digit majorities.
Hard to imagine that woman could get 3 jobs without an ID.
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Go to the USA and talk to black women, and ask if they have ID and if it was difficult to get.
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Said Black woman needs an ID to get jobs and collect benefits like SNAP, WIC, etc.
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In canada, if you don't have an id, you can get someone who knows you (and has an id) to swear an oath you are who you say you are. You can also register at the same time you are voting.
Seems to work fine. I dont think we have ever had any issues with that system.
Even more radical: in Australia you turn up at one of many polling stations with no ID whatsoever and vote.
It works because voting in Australia is compulsory. They must have your name on their list, they cross if off it and hand over the ballot paper. The checks and balances you might expect and done after the event, making it fairly secure.
Only of those checks is you did vote, and a fine follows if you didn't.
Most states where voter id is mandatory also have policies where you can get a free ID and even a free ride to a location to get your ID. They implemented that in South Carolina and after the first few years, nobody used it.
Because you have to have an ID to do almost everything else in the country so everybody already has an ID and opposition to voter ID makes no sense.
"Free" ID generally means there is no fee paid to the issuer of the ID. It can cost hundreds of dollars to get the documents that you have to present to the issuer to get that "free" ID.
Also many states have accompanied their stricter voter ID requirements with reducing the number of offices that process applications and with reducing the hours they accept applications so that even if you can get a free ride to an office you might have to take an unpaid day off from work to do so. That can be a significant loss for many poor workers.
> Because you have to have an ID to do almost everything else in the country so everybody already has an ID and opposition to voter ID makes no sense.
Yet many millions get by without an ID [1]. A lot of things you probably think cannot be done without an ID actually can.
For example how can you cash a paycheck without an ID? You need an ID to open a bank account. An answer is you can cash checks using a third party endorsement. You don't need a bank for that. You just need a trusted friend who has a bank account. I'd guess that this is what the 6% of Americans without bank accounts do (23% among those making less than $25k/year) [2].
How about getting a job without ID? First, there are a lot of people who don't need jobs (e.g., the stay at home partner in a household where one partner works and the other takes care of the house). Second there are a lot of job that pay cash and are off the record.
Also there are a fair number of people who once had ID but no longer do. It has been a very long time since I've actually needed to show my driver's license to anyone.
My banking is all online, as is my check cashing (my bank has a great "deposit by photo" function).
When I signed up for Medicare, Medigap, and a Part D plan that was all through ssa.gov and medicare.gov, with no need to show ID. That was apparently all covered by when I showed ID years ago when I set up ID.me as a login method for my ssa.gov account. It will likely be the same when I apply for Social Security benefits. Afterwards all my interaction with SS and Medicare should be through ssa.gov and medicare.gov.
If when I'm older I am no longer fit to drive and let my driver's license expire and don't remember to get a state photo ID then there is a good chance I can live the rest of my life comfortably without ever running into anything where that causes problems.
The simplest way, though, to see that it is possible to get by reasonably well without an ID is to note the large number of undocumented workers that the current administration is trying to kick out. They are able to come here, find places to live, and get paying jobs all without a state issued photo ID.
Whatever they are doing citizens can do too.
[1] https://www.voteriders.org/analysis-millions-lack-voter-id/
[2] https://www.cnbc.com/2024/08/02/23percent-of-low-income-amer...
This makes no sense. You can literally register to vote at the DMV and I know very few adult Americans, of one ethnicity or another, who don't have a driver's license.
You dont know many poor people, or very young people.
I work a furry convention in the Southern US, about 3% of our attendees have some ID related malady - can't get a timely appointment at DMV, missing core documentation, unable to prove residency, etc - nevermind rural voters who may live hours from a DMV.. which they can't get to without a license (assuming they can afford a car) or a ride. No bus service to speak of either.
Its a huge issue, I'd 100% support voter ID if getting an ID was free and easy, without it I'm skeptical.
Yeah, see the article about "RealID" yesterday. The first step is to require an ID, and the next step is to make it harder to get. For example, a married woman without a perfect paper trail of name changes? No Id.
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I'm with you
What state do you live in? I think this argument is very frustrating when people who live largely in blue states (like California) that don't up any hurdles to getting an ID, can't imagine the level of dysfunction that is intentionally executed in other states in order to prevent people from getting IDs.
Yeah, everyone you know has a valid ID because you don't live in a battleground state that is currently fighting electoral welfare. Republicans don't care to put up barriers to getting an ID in California, Texas or New York.
> I know very few adult Americans
Do you think there's a chance there's a selection bias to your random sampling of the population?
It's easier if you just tell me what the bias is.
Incidentally, there are many less privileged people around me and, let me tell you, they're not going to work on foot.
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RealID documentation requirements are a PITA. I have a birth certificate and passport and valid DL and it still was a nuisance the accumulate the required point allocation. People without those golden documents can be very hard pressed to meet the bar.
> This makes no sense. You can literally register to vote at the DMV.
https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2016/feb/19/john-olive...
> driver's license
Republicans are trying to make it so that the vast majority of drivers' licenses do not work either. You may have to get a new one, with passport-level paperwork.
That politifact page literally states there are close by DMVs that are open every week. Not sure what point is trying to be made.
Around 9% of US citizens 18 or older do not have a non-expired driver's license. It's even more for various minorities [1][2].
[1] https://cdce.umd.edu/sites/cdce.umd.edu/files/pubs/Voter%20I...
[2] https://papersplease.org/wp/2024/06/07/who-lacks-id-in-ameri...
I only mentioned DMVs to point out that even if you didn't set out to get a voting document, you can still check the box and get it.
In other words, it's not "people need driver's licenses to vote".
Aren't poor and dumb usually republicans tho?
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Cities. It's cities.
Almost 10% of eligible voters do not have access to citizenship proof at ready[0].
Trump changed voting rules to require proof of citizenship[1].
Disenfranchising 21 million voters makes sense now, no?
[0] https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/analysis-opinion/213-...
[1] https://edition.cnn.com/2025/03/25/politics/voting-proof-of-...
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I'm French too but I disagree a bit: first, voting if important to people, should be a good reason to get an ID, voting without an ID does seem insane, so what are they doing. Second, why black people ? Are they not human too ? They can read, they can work, they can complain, they can... get an ID card right ?
Simplest answer is they don't care, wash their hands off of the whole thing and then democrats complain that it's the requirement to identify voters that block them. But it's not a strange requirement, it's as you say, a completely normal part of being a citizen to get an ID, and a duty for a voting citizen to do what they need to do to get that ballot in.
And even if black people were somehow disenfranchised from getting IDs, it doesn't prevent the non-black people to vote rationally, in the end. So no excuse.
The issue is not that the barrier is insurmountable. The issue is that small amounts of friction become meaningful at scale in elections. Place the friction in the right spots and some people experiencing that friction choose not to bother. If the people who choose not to bother disproportionately vote for one side then there's a small electoral benefit to the other side.
>Second, why black people ? Are they not human too ? They can read, they can work, they can complain, they can... get an ID card right ?
As a black American who had crackheads in my family, I don't know anyone who was totally incapable of getting an ID card. I only ever see the argument brought up by white people on the Internet. Tyranny of low expectations. Heaven forbid that black adults be expected to shoulder some personal responsibility and figure out how to meet the basic requirements to exercise their civic duties, same as white people.
"The white liberal is the worst enemy to America, and the worst enemy to the black man." -- Malcom X
You should look a little bit closer to actual circumstances of people over the country.
https://youtu.be/rHFOwlMCdto?si=OjoxCfE1noxvw3Fz
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Just read the dozens of links shared in these threads.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/eligib...
https://youtu.be/rHFOwlMCdto?si=OjoxCfE1noxvw3Fz
I'm from Pakistan, and the solution to 'it's difficult for people to get ID' was so simple even 3rd world poor illiterate country could do it: just go to them instead.
Our ID department has buses with computers and cameras/fingerprint machines on them, they go to remote villages and stuff and take everyone's bio data, then return a few weeks later and give everyone their cards.
There is literally NO valid excuse for NOT implementing voter ID.
NONE.
If we can do it, the richest country in the world can do it.
Such a pathetic hill for American Democratic party to die on.
That’s a government that’s interested and motivated in getting people an ID.
Now imagine the opposite. A government that’s not interested but rather is motivated in denying some people an ID. Why it increases that’s party likelihood of staying in power.
The US doesn't have a national id card, and the people who want to force ID for voting are the strongest block against having one, for religious reasons. What you suggest is impossible in the US.
I think it's on purpose to rather limit the voters than empower them.
No, I think that's just a republican boogie-man.
I think democrats started out with good intentions, helping enfranchise black voters a part of the civil rights act .... but somehow they have made it their morality point and refuse to accept that it is no longer fit for purpose.
They should made no voter-ID a temporary measure and created proper voter-IS systems in the meanwhile.
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The problem is that we don't have those same systems for getting an ID.
There's no "government comes to you" to give you an ID. And, many Democrats would love to make it easier to get an ID, but the Republicans often deliberately make it harder to get an ID.
They shut down offices and reduce hours of locations, so people have to travel farther and take more time off work. They increase the bureaucratic requirements and hurdles, so people are more likely to need to take multiple trips.
I personally wouldn't have a problem with making a voter ID a requirement to vote, if we could also agree to make it as easy as you describe to get an ID. The problem is the GOP wants to require getting a voter ID and simultaneously make it harder to get an ID.
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The problem in the US is they are not doing this if anything they are reducing the number of places you can get an ID.
The US is not a monolith, it's a collection of 50 states....
Democratic states collect taxes and implement policy independently, they CAN do this, at least in their own areas.
Start there first!
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I think the problem there is that in Pakistan where they do this they can reasonably assume that everyone in that remote village is a Pakistani citizen - they probably don't need to see your birth certificate to get you an ID, right? In US they want to see proof that you are a citizen and you are who you say you are, which is what (some) people have an issue with, even if you sent buses with all equipment on them to random american towns people just might not have the right documentation on them to pass the checks.
But yes, I agree, it is a pathetic problem for a 1st world country to have - just sort it out.
> they can reasonably assume that everyone in that remote village is a Pakistani citizen
absolutely not! we have had massive migrations both from India (after independence) and Afghanistan (after the russian occupation). This is NOT a given.
Things have NOT been easy... and in fact dare I say, our ID department is rather dumb and stupid. I personally have had MULTIPLE issues with them.
But we have been doing SOMETHING, and the fact that the US doesn't... is insane.
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>Whereas in a country like the US, it means missing several days of work, driving potentially hundreds of kilometers
Where did you hear this? When I lived in Pennsylvania, it was really easy to get a state ID. Just go into the DMV, show them your documents, pay the fee ($42 now), and you have your ID within the hour. They had centers all around the city, and they're open on Saturdays. Personally, I think this is an extremely weird hill for Democrats to want to die on. Most independent and swing voters think its a reasonable requirement.
Do you have a more precise exemple of a state in which it is that difficult ? And a source ? I really find it hard to believe.
Not the OP but here’s an example: https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidquestions/comments/1ghrsbq/co...
Basically you need very specific letters where your exact name and address must match but those are issued without checking. So if one uses your middle initial instead of your name then no ID for you until you get it reissued.
In Texas they have a shortage of staff issuing the ids too so there is a 3 month delay after you apply to find out what you did incorrectly https://www.statesman.com/story/opinion/columns/2024/08/19/t...
That would make sense if driver licences were difficult to obtain in US in any way shape or form, and they just aren't - almost everyone has one and it's not a big deal to get one.
Provably false.
https://youtu.be/rHFOwlMCdto?si=OjoxCfE1noxvw3Fz
And you need to do paperwork, which means you have to pay and find time. How do people with 2 or 3 jobs do?
91% of US adults have a driving licence:
https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2024/01/number-of-licensed-dr...
So forgive me for being flippant but....how hard can it be?
>>How do people with 2 or 3 jobs do?
I assume they drive to those 3 jobs, so they somehow found a way.Again, sorry for being dismissive, and I appreciate it might be time consuming at costly - but still, 91% of all American adults have found a way to do this, so my point is that driving licences(along other documents) seem like a perfectly acceptable form of ID for voting?