Comment by chatmasta
4 months ago
Is card verification a lesser form of surveillance? And there’s a good chance your card issuer (or your bank, one hop away from it) has your biometrics anyway.
I don’t like either of them… (And why does YouTube ask me to verify my age when I’m logged into a Google account I created in 2004?)
Oh, make no mistake, I hate both of these. I loathe this forced surveillance of everyone because parents can't be bothered to supervise and teach their children about the most primary of human animal functions (sex), regardless of their reasons for it.
I take great pains to keep minors out of my adult spaces, and don't have to resort to anything as invasive as biometric surveillance or card charges. This notion that the entire world should be safe for children by default, and that anything and everything adult should be vilified and locked up, is toxic as all get-out and builds shame into the human animal over something required for the perpetuation of the species.
The adult content isn't the problem, it's the relationship some folks have towards it that's the issue. That's best corrected by healthy intervention early on, not arbitrary age checks everywhere online that mainly serve as an exercise of power by the ruling class against "undesirable" elements of society.
> take great pains to keep minors out of my adult spaces, and don't have to resort to anything as invasive as biometric surveillance or card charges.
What sort of spaces are these (online or in person), and how do you enforce this? I have an online space where such non invasive measures could be useful.
Mine are rooted in the 90s/00s internet: I know the people I allow into my spaces, and extend to them a degree of trust to let others in who are also of legal age. I rotate the credentials every so often at random, forcing everyone to request the new password from me. Other spaces I inhabit also operate off this sort of "community trust" system, only letting in folks we already know ourselves. It's how we keep out minors and trolls, as well as just bad/no-longer-trusted actors.
It's inconvenient, sure, and it's not SEO-friendly, but it generally works and doesn't require checking IDs or doing biometric verifications. The thing is, I'm building a community, not a product, and therefore don't have the same concerns as, say, PornHub, for checking IDs. It's also not a scalable solution - I have to build individual rapports with people I can then trust to have the access keys to my space(s), and then monitor that trust at each password change to ensure it's not violated. It's hard work, but it's decently reliable for my needs.
For larger/at-scale providers...I think the better answer is just good-old-fashioned on-device or home-network filtering. The internet was NEVER meant to be child-friendly, and we need to make it abundantly clear to parents that it's never going to be so they take necessary steps to protect their children. I'd personally like to see more sites (in general, not just adult) contribute their domain names and CDNs to independent list maintainers (or published in a help article linked via their main footer) so individuals and organizations can have greater control over their online experience. I think if someone wants to, say, block the entire domain ranges of Amazon for whatever reason, then that information should be readily available without having to watch packet flows and analyzing CDN domain patterns.
It's just good netiquette, I think, but I'm an old-fashioned dinosaur in that regard.
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> This notion that the entire world should be safe for children by default, and that anything and everything adult should be vilified and locked up, is toxic as all get-out and builds shame into the human animal over something required for the perpetuation of the species.
The world should be safe for kids because kids are the future of our society. When the world isn't safe, families won't have kids and society will start to decline. Maybe that means giving up some of the privileges you have. That's the cost of our future.
“Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.” ― Mark Twain
The parent said "entire world".
My partner and I do not have kids. Our bedroom is not safe for kids. It will not be made safe for kids (as we're not having any).
> And why does YouTube ask me to verify my age when I’m logged into a Google account I created in 2004?
Yeah those checks are super annoying. The internet has been around long enough, mechanisms for this should exist.
And even in the smaller term, if I had to be 13 to make this account, and it has been more than 5 years, maybe relax?
> Is card verification a lesser form of surveillance?
It's not just about which is worse surveillance, it's also simply that everyone has a face but not everyone has a credit card. I'm not deemed creditworthy in this country I moved to (never had a debt in my life but they don't know that) so the card application got rejected. Do we want to upload biometrics or exclude poor and unknown people from "being 18"? I really don't know which is the lesser poison
> (And why does YouTube ask me to verify my age when I’m logged into a Google account I created in 2004?)
I'd guess they didn't want to bother with that edge case. Probably <0.01% of active Youtube accounts are >18 years old
>everyone has a face
Does everyone who is 18+ have a face that passes for 18+ (and the inverse as well)?
Overall it seems like a bad idea, but one demanded by what sounds like a good idea with not reasonable way to fully implement it, leading to a tangled network of bad ideas patching other bad ideas patching other bad ideas all the way down.
The thing being demanded is decidedly not a good idea. A reasonable demand would be that sites over a certain size include a standardized age or content rating in the headers. That would facilitate a whitelist approach, which is the only viable way to accomplish the stated goal.
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Right. Yes, I'll have to agree simply neither option is good at all
Why/how would my bank have my biometrics?
I logged into my Starling Bank account on a new phone, and I had to film my face reading a 6 digit number.
Wow, I would move my money elsewhere rather than comply with that.
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They almost certainly have a photo of your passport or other identification.
For the purpose of KYC checks.
That doesn't mean every service provider (discord, roblox, pornhub) should have the same.
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Don't know about the US, but over here the last couple of years it has been a big wave of "enable biometrics sign-in! Totes safe, your face is the best ID, just click this checkbox, please, we would really like you to use it, pretty please" in the bank apps. No idea why they pushed it so hard, and it seems to have largely subsided now.