Comment by ToucanLoucan
2 months ago
I suspect it has to do with a lot of things:
* Everything is more expensive. You say "food has never been more affordable" but I'll absolutely challenge that. Food banks and kitchens are heavily locale-dependent type resources, and are not distributed according to the needs of the populace, but rather according to the ability and willingness of given communities to sustain them.
* You skated right past the need for a smartphone, mentioning, then going on to cite libraries for some reason. This is just a non-solution to a gig worker who will receive jobs and report their status/completion via a smartphone while on the go, doing the work. Ergo to even begin gig work, one REQUIRES a smart phone WITH a data plan.
* And, again, the pay is shit. In my relatively wealthy area, a good Uber Eats driver can make about $13 to $16 an hour, which on it's face sounds okay for a job that requires basic smartphone literacy and a driver's license. But just think about that. For starters, more than half statistically is tips, which aren't guaranteed and are based on performance. A performance, mind, that is subject to dozens of factors entirely outside the control of the driver. Further, it requires the use of the driver's personal vehicle (or one they have access to anyway) which costs obviously fuel, but traveling so many miles so fast will also mean more frequent oil changes, more replacement parts, not to mention a STEEP increase in the odds of bodily injury on the part of the driver, and NONE of this is being handled by Uber. All of these costs and risks are being felt by the driver.
And that still leaves tons of expenses on the table: insurance for the vehicle, many drivers want to run multiple apps which can require the use of multiple phones and therefore multiple data plans, they need to keep their vehicles clean and tidy for cargo or even passengers, they need to be available at the peak times for orders in order to make any money at all, and even if they do ALL OF THAT right... they are not guaranteed any wage, at all. If they simply don't get orders, or refuse too many and have the systems shadowban them, or simply aren't in the right place, their entire "shift" as it were can be a net loss for them.
> I guess it just sucks sometimes because these issues are super hairy (shut down Uber, great, now you've just put everyone out of a job). "For every complex problem there is a solution which is clear, simple, and wrong."
The solution is I think quite simple here: Uber (and all the rest of these gig apps to be clear) should be paying these people a wage, and the people should be driving cars in a fleet owned by Uber. You know, like Taxi companies did. Taxi drivers made tips, sure, occasionally, but they were hourly employees like any other. If they got in a car accident, the company was insured for that, both for the car and the worker. The employees enjoyed at least some benefits, didn't need to maintain or clean their own cars, certainly didn't need to buy the cars, and showed up to a place, on a schedule, and did a job. Like was normal before the "gig economy."
I'm really struggling to understand your argument, are you trying to argue in short-term or long-term trends? I'm trying to argue that in aggregate, life is getting better for people, while also awknowledging that there's not an equal distribution. For example, food has decreased in price 4x since 1900 in real terms[1]. I don't see how that's not more affordable.
> You skated right past the need for a smartphone.
Hmm? Like when I said "Another cost is it's pretty much impossible to do anything without a smartphone and internet"?
> a good Uber Eats driver can make about $13 to $16 an hour
Source? That doesn't line up with what I found.
> A performance, mind, that is subject to dozens of factors entirely outside the control of the driver.
This is just FUD if you haven't cited your sources on average/median/distribution of pay in whatever area.
You have a very good point on liability issues though.
> The solution is I think quite simple here
Thus increasing prices of rides, causing users to stop using the service, further shrinking pay? Uber just started being profitable after dumping billions of dollars in subsidies, on top of bad pay. If you make them full-time employees, you may just shut off the one source of income they have.
Uber won because they offered a superior service to taxis. I'm not going to open the can of worms of their predatory behavior, but there was still a significant part that was a better service.
Again, I am planning on helping these people, I think they should be helped, but you really need to think through what could happen if you force a company to become insolvent.
[1] https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/long-term-prices-food?foc...
> I'm trying to argue that in aggregate, life is getting better for people, while also awknowledging that there's not an equal distribution.
I bet you like Steven Pinker. He does this shit too where he goes "people 50 years ago didn't even have air conditioning, and now a poor person has one in their car and one in their home" which ignores several things that are going to be their own rabbit holes so I'm just going to not, but that doesn't mean things are better. Yeah, poor people have more stuff, more creature comforts, more "luxuries" today than kings had in the 1400's. That doesn't change the fact that they're barely getting by, living perpetually on a debt and stress treadmill that studies too numerous to count have shown decrease their quality of life, shorten their overall lifespan and lead to health problems, in a country where having health problems is also, totally but coincidence I'm sure, the fastest ticket one can have to poverty.
And the worst part is, it doesn't NEED to be that way. We have more of... basically everything than we ever have, yet it all costs more, and tons of businesses go under, and everybody gets poorer, while the richest grow ever, ever, ever richer.
2 trillion was transferred from the working class to the 1% during COVID. 2. Fucking. Trillion. Dollars.
> Hmm? Like when I said "Another cost is it's pretty much impossible to do anything without a smartphone and internet"?
"Pretty much impossible" and "impossible" are not the same. It is not possible to do gig work without a smartphone.
> Source? That doesn't line up with what I found.
It's going to vary widely based on locale. Mine when I commented was the suburbs of Chicago.
> This is just FUD if you haven't cited your sources on average/median/distribution of pay in whatever area.
Yeah, it is. Because gig work is inconsistent. Would you be okay working your job when your salary was completely dependent on your performance, sure, but also just how much work you had to do during that particular day, and if there was a decent chance that one day you show up to your office, sit on your ass for 8 hours, and go home without a penny?
I doubt it.
> Thus increasing prices of rides
This just in: products and services should cost what it costs for them to be created/rendered unto you, with a little more at the end so the person doing it earns a living. If you can't afford to have a person pick up a burrito for you, drive it across town in a car, and drop it on your doorstep, I would humbly suggest you get in your own car, and get your own burrito.
> Uber just started being profitable after dumping billions of dollars in subsidies
Then shut the doors! If what you're doing doesn't work, close up shop! Why does Uber have to exist? Are people better off being Uber drivers than being homeless? I mean, I guess? I wouldn't call that an open and shut case. If all the people doing gig work were instead completely unemployed, and out protesting in the streets of their capital cities, maybe society would actually do something about the rampant exploitation? Maybe all these companies couldn't get away with paying people utterly shit wages if we didn't mandate that those on assistance programs find jobs, any jobs, even if those jobs don't get them off the assistance?
I would turn this back to you: instead of asking me why people are entitled to food, why are these massive companies entitled to exist? Why are we funneling people with few options towards them to work as many hours as they can while remaining firmly below the poverty line? Why do we demand people who are starving take a certain number of interviews every week so we give them access to a menial amount of sustenance, while judging them for taking it?
> Uber won because they offered a superior service to taxis. I'm not going to open the can of worms of their predatory behavior,
Yeah I bet you're not, because you don't want to think about HOW that victory was achieved, be it the financial cost, or the human cost. Now you have a shiny app and can get rides around your city. Nobody gives a shit about the fate of labor as long as they get instant gratifications, same as it ever was.
I think at this point we're at an impasse, so agree to disagree. I'm glad there is another person who is wanting to help these people, even if I disagree with their solution :)