If I have all the time in the world, sure. When I'm racing against a deadline, I don't want to wrestle with the borrow checker too. Sure, it's objections help with the long term quality of the code and reduce bugs but that's hard to justify to a manager/process driven by Agile and Sprints. Quite possible that an experienced Rust dev can be very productive but there aren't tons of those going around.
Java has the stigma of ClassFactoryGeneratorFactory sticking to it like a nasty smell but that's not how the language makes you write things. I write Java professionally and it is as readable as any other language. You can write clean, straightforward and easy to reason code without much friction. It's a great general purpose language.
Java is incredibly productive - it's fast and has the best tooling out there IMO.
Unfortunately it's not a good gaming language. GC pauses aren't really acceptable (which C# also suffers from) and GPU support is limited.
Miguel de Icaza probably has more experience than anyone building game engines on GC platforms and is very vocally moving toward reference counted languages [1]
That has not been my experience. Sure, you don't have any control over the third-party stuff but I haven't seen this issue being widespread in the mainstream third-party libraries I've used e.g. logback, jackson, junit, jedis, pgJDBC etc which are very well known/widely used. The only place I've actually seen proliferation of this was by a contractor, who I suspect, was trying to ensure job security behind impenetrability.
I'd have said the same thing 10 years ago (or, I would have if I were comparing 10-year-old Java with modern Rust), but Java these days is actually pretty ergonomic. Rust's borrow checker balances out the ML-style niceties to bring it down to about Java's level for me, depending on the application.
Kotlin is nice indeed. Most of the issues I had with it were in interop with Java code (those pesky platform types, that behave like non-nullable but are nullable: and you are back in the NPE swamp!)
If I have all the time in the world, sure. When I'm racing against a deadline, I don't want to wrestle with the borrow checker too. Sure, it's objections help with the long term quality of the code and reduce bugs but that's hard to justify to a manager/process driven by Agile and Sprints. Quite possible that an experienced Rust dev can be very productive but there aren't tons of those going around.
Java has the stigma of ClassFactoryGeneratorFactory sticking to it like a nasty smell but that's not how the language makes you write things. I write Java professionally and it is as readable as any other language. You can write clean, straightforward and easy to reason code without much friction. It's a great general purpose language.
Java is incredibly productive - it's fast and has the best tooling out there IMO.
Unfortunately it's not a good gaming language. GC pauses aren't really acceptable (which C# also suffers from) and GPU support is limited.
Miguel de Icaza probably has more experience than anyone building game engines on GC platforms and is very vocally moving toward reference counted languages [1]
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzt36EGKEZo
He would vouch as great as he might be, he has a bias, and Mono GC was never a great implementation.
Also here is how great his new Swift love performs in reality against modern tracing GCs,
https://github.com/ixy-languages/ixy-languages
8 replies →
> GC pauses aren't really acceptable
Java has made great progress with low-pause (~1 ms) garbage collectors like ZGC and Shenandoah since ~5 years ago.
7 replies →
I have found that the ClassFactoryGeneratorFactories sneak up on you. Even if you don't want to the ecosystem slowly but surely nudges you that way.
That has not been my experience. Sure, you don't have any control over the third-party stuff but I haven't seen this issue being widespread in the mainstream third-party libraries I've used e.g. logback, jackson, junit, jedis, pgJDBC etc which are very well known/widely used. The only place I've actually seen proliferation of this was by a contractor, who I suspect, was trying to ensure job security behind impenetrability.
It is ironic how Java got that stigma and other systems that are just as bad, or worse, like Objective-C, have not.
2 replies →
I'd have said the same thing 10 years ago (or, I would have if I were comparing 10-year-old Java with modern Rust), but Java these days is actually pretty ergonomic. Rust's borrow checker balances out the ML-style niceties to bring it down to about Java's level for me, depending on the application.
I’d rather write Java than Rust, personally
Same here, and if I get bored with Java, there is also Scala, Kotlin and Clojure to chose from.
However, I would still prefer C# or F#.
Hence why I enjoy both stacks, lots of goodies to chose from, with great tooling.
I would do C#, but I don’t want to be in async/await hell.
Also it’s subjective but PascalCase really irks me.
1 reply →
Wow, way to be un-hip.
Note that I mentioned JVM languages. There is Scala, Kotlin and others. Kotlin is the default for Android, and it is really nice.
Kotlin is nice indeed. Most of the issues I had with it were in interop with Java code (those pesky platform types, that behave like non-nullable but are nullable: and you are back in the NPE swamp!)