Comment by johnh-hn
6 months ago
Does anyone know if these glasses, or any other glasses, can be tried in-person and used on desktop? I'm legally blind, but have just enough vision to use a screen without a screen reader. The problem is I have to be about 6 inches from a 27 inch screen. I'm tall, and I'm almost bent in half to do it. It's been hell on my back and neck. I've only really made it work because I've modified so many things to get around it (i.e. customising Windows, Firefox, and so on).
The part that makes it so tough is monitor arms come in standard sizes and are nowhere near long enough or extend far enough for me to sit comfortably. My dad modified my desk for me years ago to mount a monitor arm on wooden blocks, but it means I can't move the monitor much.
Being able to wear glasses and ditch the monitor entirely would be a game changer for me. I know next to nothing about AR though, being as I assumed, perhaps wrongly, it isn't something that would work for me.
Edit: Thank you for the replies. It means a lot. I've got some options to explore here now thanks to you.
I have a colleague at work who also has to get within 6" of the screen.
2 years ago I switched to a 55" 8k TV as my primary monitor.
While everyone was giving me the usual crap about it, this guy, when I showed him what it would look like with 400% Zoom, he went and bought one for himself at home.
He thanks me every few weeks, but still didn't dare to set one up in the office.
(ps I have mine standing on a normal height-adjustable table, so you wouldn't have to hunch at all)
This is an interesting suggestion. Like with most suggestions here, I have no idea if it would work or not, so I'm making a list of things to try.
One thing that would concern me a bit with this though is how I'd use my neck. To give an example, when sitting in front of my screen now, if I want to see the browser tabs at the top of my screen, then I have to tilt my head backwards to see them. But if I need to see the taskbar, I have to tilt my head down. It doesn't sound like much, but doing that all day rather than just moving your eyes instead adds to overall fatigue.
With your suggestion, I can't picture if that would still be required or not. Thanks for sharing the idea. I'll look into it.
I don't know if this will help you visualize it or not, but here's a photo of someone using a TV as a monitor on a desk
https://i.imgur.com/mjcqjfZ.jpeg
I use my 4K TV as a monitor (though from ~8ft away) and for me Windows' scaling (found under Display in Control Panel) allow me to easily read text from so far away
Maybe it could help you
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If one needs to use 55" 8K TV at 400% zoom, I suggest getting a 55" 4K TV and keeping it at 200% zoom — it's much cheaper and easier to drive with any iGPU.
There are also 55" monitors, but they'll likely be more expensive but behave much better.
I think where display setups will become really interesting is when we start seeing more integration with complex optical systems, without requiring that to be strapped to your face.
I'm aware of Brelyon as one example that's starting to spill into the consumer space. Repurposing the optical exploits that enable AR/VR in a desktop format IMO is going to be a key path to supporting novel approaches to display systems that will be actually desirable to use, and also adaptable to differing physiology.
Dude thanks for at least helping! And while he might not be comfortable enough to use it at work at least you were able to help set him up in his personal life. I had a colleague with a rare form of macular degeneration and this stuff is a game changer for him.
Precisely. The ideas here may not seem like much to some, but I am genuinely in awe of how much people are trying to help me solve this. I've had people contact me via the email in my profile offering help too. And I meant what I said in my original comment: fixing this would significantly improve my quality-of-life. That makes it difficult to convey how grateful I am for the suggestions.
Glasses like these put the screen at a focal distance further than a monitor, closer to TV distance. Optics wise it’s basically the same as VR, if a VR headset is easier to try.
If your corrected vision needs stuff 6” away, don’t expect AR or VR to be a solution with current optics
The pair I have (original xReal Air) include a glass insert that can be ground to your prescription. It's a thin piece of glass, I don't know exactly what kind of prescription can be put onto them, but it might be helpful.
That is usually for very low prescriptions. Judging by the photos, I don't think you can use those blanks for much more than -2.
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possibly this is rather a template to cut a.preacription lens to the right size, just like glasses come with templates for the prescription lenses. the prescription lenses are shipped in a large round shape, and then cut to match the template.
This is what I've been worried about. I have lens implants so I already have a fixed focus as well. The combination of the two would likely be a problem.
In a VR headset the virtual screen distance is set by the distance of the microdisplay from the lens in the headset.
It's not crazy to think you could move the microdisplay position and get a virtual display at 6". There might be other optical consequences (aberrations, change in viewable area) but in principle it can work.
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You can get a free trial of an Apple Vision Pro at an Apple Store.
Even if you have absolutely no intention of ever buying one it would give you a free and easy way to find out if a headset type device would work well with your vision or just be totally incompatible.
Some ar glasses support adjustable focus, and others support custom prescription lenses.
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It sounds like we have a similar situation. I've been wondering if these kinds of glasses would work for me but it just seems like such a hassle to order a pair to try just to end up returning them if they don't work. I wish they were sold in a store that I could just walk into and try them for a minute.
FWIW, I use a monitor arm that's mounted on the front left side of my desk (my dad also modified my desk so this would work) so I can pull it as close as I need. It does mean I can't push it back to a normal monitor distance but I'm the only one using my PC so that's not a problem. Oddly enough, I recently got cataract surgery so now I have a lens that makes me focus further away, but now text is too small to read at that distance so I have to use readers to focus closer and use the arm.. seems a little silly but it mostly works out.
I've constantly wondered why this doesn't really exist. Not even just with AR or VR but with lots of products. I thought that early on in the transition to more online purchasing that it was well understood that people were still visiting stores so that they can inspect items before purchase. There always seemed to be a weird perverse incentive where for a given store their online prices would be cheaper than those in store. Combined with wider selection of sizes and styles, it felt weird not to buy online, especially if you were not in a major city. Employees would even tell you this! Themselves being unable to just handle the "online" sale for you (baffling...). Malls offered a lot more business value than just facilitating direct purchases. They do a lot to build brands, loyalty, and advertise to customers.
Being a lanky kinda guy I could never find clothes in my sizes in store but it was still quite helpful to see the difference between certain materials and would often lead to buying a more expensive version than another. Without the stores, it just seems to make a market of lemons[0], and I think that's kinda apt given general consumer frustration. You can't rely on reviews and you can't rely on images or even product descriptions...
How the fuck am I supposed to know what I'm buying?
My hypothesis is that some bean counters saw that sales were plummeting in stores and concluded that they should then close them. Having the inability to recognize that the purpose of the store had changed, despite them likely using the stores in the new fashion themselves. Hard to make effective decisions if the only viewpoint you have is that of a spreadsheet...
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Market_for_Lemons
Several other factors probably pushing the bean counters:
So while I doubt they completely overlooked the value of a physical presence, they probably calculated that it's an acceptable tradeoff.
I think Apple does a really good job at blending their physical stores and their online business into a very seamless experience. Not many companies can operate at that level of excellence. Although I have many complaints about Apple's business practices, however, their retail stores and customer service experience are not among them.
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Best Buy is actually pretty good these days. If you have a Micro Center in your area, they're even better. Both will price match Amazon.
> ...it was well understood that people were still visiting stores so that they can inspect items before purchase.
You have all the pieces but you're not putting them together.
Bricks and mortar stores cost money just to exist - rent, rates, staffing, etc. - and that's why they can't compete on price with online stores, which can just be giant warehouses with shipping. The online arms of some physical stores can benefit from the same economies as totally online businesses, leading to cheaper prices online even for companies with a physical presence.
How can a physical shop make any money if they are just treated as a gallery for browsing before the buyer heads to Amazon to get the item 10% cheaper? It's not bean counting, it's basic economics.
How the fuck are you supposed to know what you're buying, indeed - patronise physical businesses because you recognise the value in their existence, and understand that that's worth paying an additional premium for.
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XREAL is on Amazon, and their return policy is pretty good.
Not an answer to your question, but re: monitor arms.. mine can be pulled out far enough it would touch my face. It mounts into a grommet drilled into my desk. I assume there's other reasons this isn't workable for you, but if it's for lack of finding a suitable arm, let me know and I'll find a link for you.
My other recommendation would be to consider a standing desk. Even if you prefer to use it sitting, you can tweak the desktop height to your liking and help mitigate the posture issue.
Another option: you can buy a $40 monitor arm (they're all pretty good in my experience) on Amazon and mount it in the front of the desk to the left or right side and then swing it into position in the middle anywhere, even feet in front of the desk.
That's kind of you to offer, and I'd appreciate that if you wouldn't mind. I have seen some that are a bit longer, but the height is too low for them to be of use.
Happy to (hopefully) help. I have the Fully Jarvis monitor arm[0]. But it looks like you can find substantially more options here[1] from Uplift, some of which might have better range.
Back to the Jarvis, though: see how the photos of it show the arm in a typical "bent knee" shape? You can totally use it with both halves of the arm pointed in the same direction. I just did a quick measurement on mine and each of the arms is about 25 cm long, and they're fixed at a ~45° angle. So if you center its mount on your desk, you should be able to bring the monitor around[2] 35 cm closer to your face and still retain a lot of height adjustment (~34 to ~50, as measured from your desktop to the center of the display).
If you go this route (and your desk doesn't have an existing grommet hole you can use), they sell a drill bit to bore one in the right diameter.
[0]: https://store.hermanmiller.com/office-furniture-desk-accesso...
[1]: https://www.upliftdesk.com/desk-accessories/monitor-arms/
[2]: cos(45°)*50cm
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I'm not the person you replied to, but if you get a monitor arm made for an ultra-wide monitor, it will be longer and taller than most.
I use this one myself: https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00B21TLQU
It can go far taller than I need it to, and the length of the arm itself should be enough that, positioned well, I imagine you could get it situated however you wanted.
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You might also look at arms that use a vertical post with a horizontal arm coming off of it, rather than the gas spring height adjustment. They can come in a variety of heights, I think mainly because the systems are designed to allow multiple rows of screens (like a big 3x2 grid).
Off the top of my head, I know I've seen this for Knoll Sapper, which the PDF brochure (linked below) says has posts up to 32" high. Not sure if the 17" horizontal extension is enough for you, though you could also drill a hole in a desk and mount the post further forward instead of clamping on the back. Or heck, clamp it on the side or front.
See page 7 here: https://www.knoll.com/document/1352941326370/Copy%20of%20Sap...
I have very high myopia (over -10) and share your concerns. I really wish these things were designed to cater to people for whom alternate display tech would actually simplify our lives.
So far I haven't seen anything that can deal with more than -8, and getting a custom prescription is usually prohibitively expensive. I can wear contacts to offset things somewhat, but they just cause added eyestrain.
Disclaimer: the following is bad medical advice, do not follow.
VR/AR/MR headsets aren't precisely focused at infinity, it's usually 10ft or so. They also have lower resolution than human eyes(~60 px/deg or 1MOA) while at it. This combined means you don't need full correction, I personally use -3 for both eyes, and it seem to work for me in VR.
YMMV.
I think custom prescriptions for the xreal air 1 are around $80: https://vroptician.com/prescription-lens-inserts/nreal-air
Which I could see that being a deal breaker, but maybe it's lower than you thought
With import tax to the EU, yeah, it's a deal breaker. Even from the UK. Also, that site only has lenses for the first gen, and above -10 there's a surcharge of EUR 70.
I pay more for eyeglasses than for a Quest 3, so... I don't want to double that.
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I had soemthing like -9.50, but had LASIK, and now I can't focus on anything less than eight or so inches away. I have never tried AR glasses or a VR headset, would they work?
They should work, because they are at infinity in your eyes' perspective.
I know what you mean. I can't help but wonder what it would take to make a pair of these. The hardware requirements for low-vision users would be lower, as we wouldn't need things like ultra high definition displays.
It's not too difficult to actually assemble - you just need some displays, a display driver, and the optics - but getting optics fabricated to meet your requirements might be challenging.
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Virtue One's prescription insert is $100.
Just to chime in with another alternative - if you're open to using Linux, you might want to look into Viewport Panning with X11 [0].
It allows you to setup a larger virtual desktop that you can then pan around. Instead of moving your head around, you could instead just shift the viewport. Might be more convenient than a larger screen and/or monitor arms assuming you also setup zoom/display scaling.
By default, you pan by moving the mouse to an edge, but iirc you can setup key bindings and/or gestures.
[0] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/X/Config/Resolution#Panning_viewport
Great replies here already. Just piggybacking on the monitor arms: I have mounted mine to the wall. If this is an option for you, you can mount them at a good height on the wall and extend it to bring the screen closer.
Something you can consider are "dentist office screen mounts". They're what they seem like, arms like you'd see at a dentist office/hospital that swings around an entire room, to hold a light or screen. See this example Amazon listing for one that mounts to a wall with a 5foot swing area: https://www.amazon.com/DW630-1218-Long-Articulated-Adjustabl...
Ive mounted monitor arms to the front of the desk, rather than the back, and extended them out toward me for a somewhat similar situation. Bluetooth keyboard goes in my lap, thumb ball mouse goes on my arm rest. I can extend the monitor about 2.5 feet toward my face in this way. Hope it helps
I have a co-worker who is similar, needs to be about 3-4 inches from the screen. He had his monitor die, a 15" LCD, and the guys in IT 'did him a favor" and upgraded him to a 27" screen. He lasted all of an hour. Told IT it'll never work and they were confused until the saw and understood his use case.
I thought about these glasses, too, when I tore and detached my retina. With the surgery they drained me eye and my focal distance was initially maybe 1cm, and as my eye refilled the focal distance grew. At the time I wondered if sometime like Google Glass would work for me. I feel like there could be a lot of applications for these if they'll work with such short focal lengths.
What if you built a wheeled carriage to go over your desk?
Something made of precisely cut 2x4 lumber or 2040 frames, assembled like a whiteboard frame but have just a single beam where the board would be. Then the pole of monitor arm can be bolted onto the beam to hang upside down.
Once assembled, the whole thing can be rolled in and up to the front edge of the desk, right up to your face. If someone else needs to use your computer, the carriage can probably be moved back towards the wall.
The reason why display arms extend only so far is because a long cantilevered weight love to wreck the base. The desk top is going to break if it's too far out. So stretching the arm is probably no go.
Or you can get this thing called an "office chair". The overpaid tech bros here prefer names like Aeron, Embody, and Mirra. Some execs swear by their Eames too.
GP needs to have display right up his face. Chairs don't solve that problem.
> " ...I have to be about 6 inches from a 27 inch screen. I'm tall, and I'm almost bent in half to do it ... The part that makes it so tough is monitor arms come in standard sizes and are nowhere near long enough or extend far enough for me to sit comfortably ... "
Google for "long reach" monitor arms; some models have a reach of 30 to 40+ inches. They're not exactly cheap since they come from ergonomics vendors but they allow you to bring a large monitor as close to your face as you like and, depending on the model, clamp to a table like a standard monitor arm. I've had various models of them for a couple of decades now.
I have a pair of these Xreal (formerly Nreal) glasses, and I find text too unclear from the plastic optics, too full of halo/fringe (think: cheap VR headset, like trying to work on a Quest 2), and the OLED's pixel arrangement too odd for any serious work use. It's just about good enough for light gaming and movie consumption, but even gaming is a strain for me. They also make me sleepy! They do accept some prescription lenses inserted in front of the viewports, and include a blank you can have cut, but I haven't used them. I have good close-up vision with some mild, untreated astigmatism.
You can use them just as a monitor/without AR - some require a special USB-C to DP cable if you don't have native USB-C video out (or Thunderbolt), but they are a bit blurry compared to normal screens for me. I'm not sure how well they'd work for you.
The other problem is they aren't quite up against your eyes the way VR headsets are. They project a screen that appears to be quite far away. I imagine you could lower the resolution though, and it might look closer.
Thanks for this. I definitely would lower the resolution if I could as I do the same thing with my screen. The only complication with that might be that in addition I also use: https://www.majorgeeks.com/files/details/windows_10_dpi_fix....
Newer models, like the One and One Pro, allow you to set the distance. I think the minimum is 1.5m.
A PC is actually the best way to use xreal imo. The android experience is clunky... But I'm old and use mouse and keyboard for everything
Regarding monitor arms, what if you put a regular monitor straight in your face and use a split keyboard (like Ergodox) on the sides?
I dont know if I missed someone else saying it but have you tried the Apple Vision?
The screens are a few inches from your eyes.
I also wonder how AR glasses work with myopia. Could they potentialy worsen it? Need to dig out some research.
a) You can always get them, try them, and return them in the given period if you don't like them. That's what I did with these same glasses and I didn't get any crap about it
b) There are monitor arms that extend quite far, and are easy to install. I use this one: https://a.co/d/fV5llce. Granted I don't keep it 6" away from my face and my desk is a bit too big for that, but I could get it really close if I wanted and my desk was smaller.
There are fairly long arms which any vesa mount monitor can be attached to. This is no option for you?
The specific company I would point to is Ergotron. In the worst case you can just daisy-chain extra arm extensions as long as it's within the total weight limit, and I'm 100% confident after using the same monitor arms for years that the result would be reasonably stable.
There used to be also some Amazon Basics branded ones that are also produced by Ergotron (or the same factory that produces Ergotron - not sure). They were 100% compatible, and looked/functioned the same for quarter of the price.
Pardon my ignorance, but why not you just wear glasses?
if you are based in the USA, most stores have 30 day return policies. perhaps order them, try at home, and return if you they arent a fit for your situation
I'm in the UK, but the same idea applies, you're right. I'm just hoping there is a way to do it in-person as I might need to try quite a few types to get something that works.
My wife uses Klarna to order multiple items, pay with Klarna (delayed payment) and then only pay for what is not sent back. Usually you have few weeks? to try the items, even though it's usually clothes stores that allow Klarna payment.
Since you're in Europe, Klarna might work there.
Basically all XR devices put the focal plane at between 0.5 and 1m away. It’s a very very complicated reason why, but this is unlikely to change for a very long time.
Huh? I've always seen numbers larger than that
Xreal claims
> To mitigate this, the industry usually maintains the VID at over 1 meter; for instance, Apple's Vision Pro employs a distance of 1.1m, Meta Quest 3 sits at 1.25m, and Hololens boasts 2m.
https://us.shop.xreal.com/blogs/buying-guide/prescription-le...
Though strangely they don't give a number their for their own devices.
The article claims the focal plane on the xreal glasses is 10 feet (roughly 3m).
Why? I mean, can't you dial it in and out if you weren't folding the path and really needed that feature?
Can you point to something to learn more about this?
The article says his one is 10 feet (3m).