Motivation is some combination of real and perceived effort Vs expected reward. Shorter isn't always better. For eg. Counting every single calorie is the shorter way to lose weight, but for most people, eating approximately healthy is more optimal from an effort /motivation poi t of view.
I think both have a place. When someone is starting for the first time, they're enthusiastic, but they haven't built faith in the process yet. It's easy for them to lose confidence if they're putting in work but the results are slow or ambiguous. I think it's best to take advantage of their beginner's enthusiasm and kick them off with something higher effort that is guaranteed to show them clear results. After they build confidence they can settle in to something lower effort (aka "more sustainable") where the benefit is longer-term and you don't see dramatic results every week.
Spending half an hour mind-numbingly learning words through flashcards will teach you about as much vocabulary as an hour watching educational videos, but it'll be far less fun and you'll feel like it actually took two hours.
Keep that up every day and you'll burn out much faster with option 1 than option 2. Now, maybe you have enough motivation for that not to matter, or the self-discipline to keep going - as I did in my A levels - but don't be surprised if it kills your interest in the subject.
Edit: It's worth noting I had a nasty head injury that was slowing me down. Optimising my learning was a necessity, and the injury meant I spent more time studying than my peers, in more optimised and less enjoyable ways, to get the same result.
I‘m not super well versed in the literature but I know this has been researched, and—unless you are being hyperbolic—it completely fails the sniff test.
As OP points out, SRS is optimized for memory retention. You will almost certainly encounter many more words watching a two hour long video, but you certainly won‘t retain nearly as many words as half an hour of SRS.
Actually you can combine the two. Use the two hour long video to encounter new vocabulary in context, put the new vocabulary in your Anki deck, and review it with optimized SRS. You get the best of both worlds. As a bonus you often remember the source which will help you recall... This is actually common enough pattern that it has a name: Vocabulary mining.
Oh thanks, I didn't know there was a name for the thing I've been doing. Vocabulary mining is a nice term.
I agree with your general point too. People are correct to say SRS only helps with memorising and not with learning, but this is only a problem if you haven't developed functional learning techniques or you have to learn something you don't enjoy. Good learning essentially hinges on interest and excitement, and making the thing you're learning relatable or catchy.
If you have exams and deadlines, this can be hard. If you've no exams and no deadlines, just flashcard anything interesting that comes your way, include context and jokes, and focus on enjoying yourself. Delete flashcards with a smile if they annoy you a few repetitions down the line. Make all your own cards. Invent funny stuff, find quirky facts that stand out.
E.g., the area of Ireland is 84,421km^2 - all powers of 2. I never had a "yardstick" for big areas, now I do. Borneo is nearly nine Irelands in size.
Or another example, French Polynesia has 121 islands, 75 of which are inhabited. I found this fact shocking, so I thought I'd put it in to a flashcard. After some quick reflection, I'm sure you too could come up with ways to make those numbers stand out.
Another - the title of Wittgenstein's "Tractatus Logico Philosophicus" - where truth tables were popularised - ends in SOS. No more forgetting the title, or where truth tables are from!
In summary - learn things you like, and make it spicy for you.
> Spending half an hour mind-numbingly learning words through flashcards will teach you about as much vocabulary as an hour watching educational videos, but it'll be far less fun and you'll feel like it actually took two hours.
The first part is definitely untrue, you won't learn any vocabulary spending an hour watching an educational video, you'll be lucky if you remember one new word tomorrow. That half hour on Anki will be spread out over six months, and will teach you 20 words.
As for the second part, doing Anki is like doing through any sort of timeline that spits out random rewards and failures. I get a rush whenever I remember stuff, and I get bummed out when I forget; it's basically facebook.
I understand why one wouldn't think that with single-word vocabulary flashcards, because they are horrible to do and unhelpful. You should be running sentences, not words. Words rarely translate well, change form when they are in sentences, and often show up as part of seemingly ungrammatical set phrases.
Many things. I think HN is a bit of a bubble here, but you'll find a lot of people prefer something enjoyable but slower to something efficient and faster, even if they won't admit it.
See the popularity of Duolingo vs Anki as an example! Or Quizlet vs Anki. Or the scores of students who revise by half-watching dopamine-ified youtube videos rather than doing past papers and flashcards. If you ask people, they'll often say they care for efficiency, but their revealed preferences say otherwise.
Doing large amounts (hours) of Anki day in day out is truly miserable, particularly when the alternatives can be quite enjoyable. And if you burn out before you achieve your goal, is the "efficiency" really worth it vs going slower but eventually getting there?
Plus, a lot of people want to learn e.g. a language because they enjoy the process as well as the end result. Making the process miserable in order to get to the end result faster isn't always a good tradeoff.
Which is what it's about. It's a tradeoff. I'm a big proponent of flashcards, but I think it's important to recognise that you're trading enjoyment for speed in most cases.
Maybe an 80/20 approach where you only create flashcards for the 20% of knowledge that's most useful? E.g. for a language, you could create 1000 flashcards for the 1000 most common words which allow for basic real-world communication?
> Many things. I think HN is a bit of a bubble here, but you'll find a lot of people prefer something enjoyable but slower to something efficient and faster, even if they won't admit it.
This is so well known that it was covered extensively in the book Make It Stick[1], that you might as well call it the "student fallacy." (And they might have; ironically, I've forgotten if they do or not!)
Mastery by George Leonard touches on some of this; learners can fall into 3 categories during the learning process: Dabblers, Obsessives, and Hackers. Each one has strengths and weaknesses, but the core philosophy is that "mastery takes time". After 2-3 years of practice, you know all the moves in a school of martial arts, or all the chord progressions for an instrument. But its the "after" where you either continue to refine or move on to the next skill.
Anything advertising that you can learn X in Y days isn't addressing that "after" period. Once you've learned the skill, you need motivation toward applying it, which in turn refines your skills. Conversely, becoming hyper fixated can be detrimental to overall skill. "Jack of all trades, master of none" HOWEVER the rest of the quote goes "but often times better than a master of one"
Sometimes you gotta slog through the boring bits to progress.
Motivation is some combination of real and perceived effort Vs expected reward. Shorter isn't always better. For eg. Counting every single calorie is the shorter way to lose weight, but for most people, eating approximately healthy is more optimal from an effort /motivation poi t of view.
I think both have a place. When someone is starting for the first time, they're enthusiastic, but they haven't built faith in the process yet. It's easy for them to lose confidence if they're putting in work but the results are slow or ambiguous. I think it's best to take advantage of their beginner's enthusiasm and kick them off with something higher effort that is guaranteed to show them clear results. After they build confidence they can settle in to something lower effort (aka "more sustainable") where the benefit is longer-term and you don't see dramatic results every week.
Spending half an hour mind-numbingly learning words through flashcards will teach you about as much vocabulary as an hour watching educational videos, but it'll be far less fun and you'll feel like it actually took two hours.
Keep that up every day and you'll burn out much faster with option 1 than option 2. Now, maybe you have enough motivation for that not to matter, or the self-discipline to keep going - as I did in my A levels - but don't be surprised if it kills your interest in the subject.
It's very likely that you're using Anki in situations that will burn you out and drain your motivation anyway.
Nah, I love physics. It's just a lot!
Edit: It's worth noting I had a nasty head injury that was slowing me down. Optimising my learning was a necessity, and the injury meant I spent more time studying than my peers, in more optimised and less enjoyable ways, to get the same result.
I‘m not super well versed in the literature but I know this has been researched, and—unless you are being hyperbolic—it completely fails the sniff test.
As OP points out, SRS is optimized for memory retention. You will almost certainly encounter many more words watching a two hour long video, but you certainly won‘t retain nearly as many words as half an hour of SRS.
Actually you can combine the two. Use the two hour long video to encounter new vocabulary in context, put the new vocabulary in your Anki deck, and review it with optimized SRS. You get the best of both worlds. As a bonus you often remember the source which will help you recall... This is actually common enough pattern that it has a name: Vocabulary mining.
Oh thanks, I didn't know there was a name for the thing I've been doing. Vocabulary mining is a nice term.
I agree with your general point too. People are correct to say SRS only helps with memorising and not with learning, but this is only a problem if you haven't developed functional learning techniques or you have to learn something you don't enjoy. Good learning essentially hinges on interest and excitement, and making the thing you're learning relatable or catchy.
If you have exams and deadlines, this can be hard. If you've no exams and no deadlines, just flashcard anything interesting that comes your way, include context and jokes, and focus on enjoying yourself. Delete flashcards with a smile if they annoy you a few repetitions down the line. Make all your own cards. Invent funny stuff, find quirky facts that stand out.
E.g., the area of Ireland is 84,421km^2 - all powers of 2. I never had a "yardstick" for big areas, now I do. Borneo is nearly nine Irelands in size.
Or another example, French Polynesia has 121 islands, 75 of which are inhabited. I found this fact shocking, so I thought I'd put it in to a flashcard. After some quick reflection, I'm sure you too could come up with ways to make those numbers stand out.
Another - the title of Wittgenstein's "Tractatus Logico Philosophicus" - where truth tables were popularised - ends in SOS. No more forgetting the title, or where truth tables are from!
In summary - learn things you like, and make it spicy for you.
Yeah, and flashcards generally work better when you're reinforcing existing learning. Learning by flashcards is hellish for me.
3 replies →
> Spending half an hour mind-numbingly learning words through flashcards will teach you about as much vocabulary as an hour watching educational videos, but it'll be far less fun and you'll feel like it actually took two hours.
The first part is definitely untrue, you won't learn any vocabulary spending an hour watching an educational video, you'll be lucky if you remember one new word tomorrow. That half hour on Anki will be spread out over six months, and will teach you 20 words.
As for the second part, doing Anki is like doing through any sort of timeline that spits out random rewards and failures. I get a rush whenever I remember stuff, and I get bummed out when I forget; it's basically facebook.
I understand why one wouldn't think that with single-word vocabulary flashcards, because they are horrible to do and unhelpful. You should be running sentences, not words. Words rarely translate well, change form when they are in sentences, and often show up as part of seemingly ungrammatical set phrases.
What's worse for motivation than taking longer?
Boredom?
Feeling like what you're doing is low-quality or superficial?
Doing something artificial for purely external reasons like grades or exams?
Can't speak for anyone else, but for me I would take slower progress over any of these... which makes spaced repetition a hard sell.
> What's worse for motivation than taking longer?
Many things. I think HN is a bit of a bubble here, but you'll find a lot of people prefer something enjoyable but slower to something efficient and faster, even if they won't admit it.
See the popularity of Duolingo vs Anki as an example! Or Quizlet vs Anki. Or the scores of students who revise by half-watching dopamine-ified youtube videos rather than doing past papers and flashcards. If you ask people, they'll often say they care for efficiency, but their revealed preferences say otherwise.
Doing large amounts (hours) of Anki day in day out is truly miserable, particularly when the alternatives can be quite enjoyable. And if you burn out before you achieve your goal, is the "efficiency" really worth it vs going slower but eventually getting there?
Plus, a lot of people want to learn e.g. a language because they enjoy the process as well as the end result. Making the process miserable in order to get to the end result faster isn't always a good tradeoff.
Which is what it's about. It's a tradeoff. I'm a big proponent of flashcards, but I think it's important to recognise that you're trading enjoyment for speed in most cases.
Maybe an 80/20 approach where you only create flashcards for the 20% of knowledge that's most useful? E.g. for a language, you could create 1000 flashcards for the 1000 most common words which allow for basic real-world communication?
3 replies →
> Many things. I think HN is a bit of a bubble here, but you'll find a lot of people prefer something enjoyable but slower to something efficient and faster, even if they won't admit it.
This is so well known that it was covered extensively in the book Make It Stick[1], that you might as well call it the "student fallacy." (And they might have; ironically, I've forgotten if they do or not!)
[1]: https://www.amazon.com/Make-Stick-Science-Successful-Learnin...
Yeah, 100%. I worded my comment a bit awkwardly, but that's exactly what I was getting at too :)
Mastery by George Leonard touches on some of this; learners can fall into 3 categories during the learning process: Dabblers, Obsessives, and Hackers. Each one has strengths and weaknesses, but the core philosophy is that "mastery takes time". After 2-3 years of practice, you know all the moves in a school of martial arts, or all the chord progressions for an instrument. But its the "after" where you either continue to refine or move on to the next skill.
Anything advertising that you can learn X in Y days isn't addressing that "after" period. Once you've learned the skill, you need motivation toward applying it, which in turn refines your skills. Conversely, becoming hyper fixated can be detrimental to overall skill. "Jack of all trades, master of none" HOWEVER the rest of the quote goes "but often times better than a master of one"
Sometimes you gotta slog through the boring bits to progress.