Comment by 0xDEAFBEAD
15 days ago
I confess my opinion of Noam Chomsky dropped a lot from reading this interview. The way he set up a "Tom Jones" strawman and kept dismissing positions using language like "we'd laugh", "total absurdity", etc. was really disappointing. I always assumed that academics were only like that on reddit, and in real life they actually made a serious effort at rigorous argument, avoiding logical fallacies and the like. Yet here is Chomsky addressing a lay audience that has no linguistics background, and instead of even attempting to summarize the arguments for his position, he simply asserts that opposing views are risible with little supporting argument. I expected much more from a big-name scholar.
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool."
Havent read the interview, but interviews arent formal debates and I would never expect someone to hold themselves to that same standard.
The same way that reddit comments arent a formal debate.
Mocking is absolutely useful. Sometimes you debate someone like graham hancock and force him to confirm that he has no evidence for his hypotheses, then when you discuss the debate, you mock him relentlessly for having no evidence for his hypotheses.
> Yet here is Chomsky addressing a lay audience that has no linguistics background
So not a formal debate or paper where I would expect anyone to hold to debate principles.
"Tom Jones" isn't a strawman, Chomsky is addressing an actual argument in a published paper from Steven Piantadosi. He's using a pseudonym to be polite and not call him out by name.
> instead of even attempting to summarize the arguments for his position..
He makes a very clear, simple argument, accessible to any layperson who can read. If you are studying insects what you are interested in is how insects do it not what other mechanisms you can come up with to "beat" insects. This isn't complicated.
>The systems work just as well with impossible languages that infants cannot acquire as with those they acquire quickly and virtually reflexively.
Where is the research on impossible language that infants can't acquire? A good popsci article would give me leads here.
Even assuming Chomsky's claim is true, all it shows is that LLMs aren't an exact match for human language learning. But even an inexact model can still be a useful research tool.
>That’s highly unlikely for reasons long understood, but it’s not relevant to our concerns here, so we can put it aside. Plainly there is a biological endowment for the human faculty of language. The merest truism.
Again, a good popsci article would actually support these claims instead of simply asserting them and implying that anyone who disagrees is a simpleton.
I agree with Chomsky that the postmodern critique of science sucks, and I agree that AI is a threat to the human race.
> Where is the research on impossible language that infants can't acquire? A good popsci article would give me leads here.
It's not infants, it's adults but Moro "Secrets of Words" is a book that describes the experiments and is aimed at lay people.
> Even assuming Chomsky's claim is true, all it shows is that LLMs aren't an exact match for human language learning. But even an inexact model can still be a useful research tool.
If it is it needs to be shown, not assumed. Just as you wouldn't by default assume that GPS navigation tells you about insect navigation (though it might somehow).
> Again, a good popsci article would actually support these claims instead of simply asserting them and implying that anyone who disagrees is a simpleton.
He justifies the statement in the previous sentence (which you don't quote) where he says that it is self-evident by virtue of the fact that something exists at the beginning (i.e. it's not empty space). That's the "merest truism". No popsci article is going to help understand that if you don't already.
That's understandable but irrelevant. Only a few people have major interest in how humans think exactly. But nearly everyone is hang on the question if the LLMs could think better.
It's not irrelevant, it's the core of the disconnect: The problem is that everyone is arguing as if they passionately care about how humans work when, as you say, they don't care at all.
People should just recognize, as you have done, that they don't actually care about how the human language faculty works. It's baffling that they instead choose to make absurd arguments to defend fields they don't care one way or another about.
When Chomsky says that LLMs aren't how the human faculty works it would be so easy to tell the truth and say "I don't care how the human language faculty works" and everyone can go focus on the things they are interested in, just as it would be easy for a GPS designer to say "I don't care how insect navigation works".
There is no problem as long as you don't pretend to be caring about (this aspect of) science.
Is it polite to deprive readers of context necessary to understand what the speaker is talking about? I was also very confused by that part and I had no idea whom or what he was talking about or why he even started taking about that.
I searched for an actual paper by that guy because you’ve mentioned his real name. I found “Modern language models refute Chomsky’s approach to language”. After reading it seems even more true that Chomsky’s Tom Jones is a strawman.
> After reading it seems even more true that Chomsky's Tom Jones is a strawman.
Lol. It's clear you are not interested in having any kind of rational discussion on the topic and are driven by some kind of zealotry when you claim to have read a technical 40 page paper (with an additional 18 pages of citations) in 30 minutes.
Even if by some miraculous feat you had read it you haven't made a single actual argument or addressed any of the points made by Chomsky.
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There's a reason Max Planck said science advances one funeral at a time. Researches spend their lives developing and promoting the ideas they cut their teeth on (or in this case developed himself) and their view of what is possible becomes ossified around these foundational beliefs. Expecting him to be flexible enough in his advanced age to view LLMs with a fresh perspective, rather than strongly informed by his core theoretical views is expecting too much.