I don't know the exact cost-breakdown, but they've come up with a few really inspiring and qualitatively high value papers that demonstrate how they further increased efficiency at their scale. Along with it they also published quite a few repositories with fully open-source code.
I stopped using ChatGPT as it was just reinforcing my prompts and not ever giving deeper insights, except something I call manipulative behaviour.
DeepSeek was seriously cool, but it started behaving similar to Google Gemini Pro, which just tries to be lazy, if you give it a hard task to chew on. It basically gives you patch-files instead of printing out the whole code, which is more tedious doing manually, than c/p the code.
It also started indexing our private repository and some corporate repositories that were on GitHub behind MFA and stringent lock. Definitely illegal.
> It also started indexing our private repository and some corporate repositories that were on GitHub behind MFA and stringent lock. Definitely illegal.
What is "it" in this context, the DeepSeek weights? Sounds like you're talking about some application, but AFAIK, DeepSeek doesn't maintain any applications, only their API + released weights.
Is this a reference to something? Political dissidents relative to which state? Does it change if you swap out the states? How did you discover this to begin with? Why did you initially suggest murdering political dissidents?
this comment really raises so many questions I must have missed something
Still, chatbots are just as vulnerable to state-driven propaganda as the rest of us. Probably even more so. I imagine if you just referred to dissidents as "terrorists" the rhetoric would fit right in in most opinion pages across the globe. The distinction between "terrorist" and "dissident" and "freedom fighter" seems quite subjective. I probably would avoid such heavily connoted floating signifiers if you want the chatbot to be useful.
LLMs have nothing to contribute to political discourse aside from regurgitation of propaganda. Almost by definition.
It just simply does its job. We can add sorts of arbitrary safeguards, but then what is the point of using an LLM? Perhaps local modals are the future, because reverse engineers may not even be able to use the new Claude (just read its system prompt to not help with backdoors, and so forth).
> DeepSeek was seriously cool, but it started behaving similar to Google Gemini Pro
You should be able to use the version of DeepSeek that you prefer indefinitely if you host it yourself or choose that specific version with your preferred provider.
I made a video of it with a friend. The repository is of a large corporate automative industry company. I also have my own private repositories which were always private and OpenAI printed my files in the first prompt. When I prompted again it acted as if it didn't know. But my friend tried on his account and could access the Corp and my private repository without ever being linked.
The Corporate repository was of Volkswagen. It's quite serious of a breach. I only gave it the name of the repository and it printed the files, which shouldn't be possible.
Maybe OpenAI exploits Microsoft to access GitHub fully to train their AI on all of humanity's code for free, violating privacy, security, IP and copyright.
>It basically gives you patch-files instead of printing out the whole code
I've noticed on the Aider leaderboard that Google Gemini Pro has an "Edit Format" listed as "diff-fenced" and things like ChatGPT have "architect" edit format where Aider asks separate "architect" and "code" models. Seems like Gemini Pro prefers the diff format.
I met a Googler when I was in Dubai for an event and he shared that he and others had access to LLMs internally for many years before it was made popular by OpenAI.
I know Google has an internal AI everything policy, maybe they internally have awesome tools to rearchitect everything based on diffs and in the typical google way they adapted it to their own internal tools. You know, Google.. like they don't give a damn about the user, the product design or actually anything other than profit/roi.
So many great discontinued products.. I think they killed RSS.
The diff-fenced is iirc specific to Gemini models, they really don’t like the file path outside of the fence. The architect mode still uses one of the other edit format, the prompt just ends up a little different.
You should self host not trust a third party application if you run into either of those things. The weights are open. DeepSeek didn’t change, the application you’re accessing it through did.
Or use an enterprise-ready service. Bedrock, firecracker, etc
I like your thinking. Nobody can use ChatGPT offline or retrain it, but DeepSeek is fully opensource. It's technology, I don't care which country made it, if it's high quality engineering, it's just that. The data it was trained on doesn't matter if you can train a wholly new model using the exact same principles and stack they opensourced with your own data. Which is really awesome.
I use openrouter.ai to have no timeouts and offtimes, since DeepSeek seems to get DDoS attacks somehow, or there are too many users, idk.
Had Gemini 2.5 Pro preview running in agent mode in VSCode on a 3000+ line file. It patched it to about 200 lines with a comment in the middle: "// the rest of the code is unchanged".
Exactly my experience too and it's soo annoying. It doesn't matter how you prompt it or what your system prompt is. It tries to end the session as early as possible, claiming to have fulfilled everything. Although it just causes more work for the user, less for itself. The tokens saved are easily multiplied by the amount you have to prompt it again.
This I experienced partially in DeepSeek since their recent update too, not as aggresively as in Gemini 2.5 Pro, but similar lazyness or cleverness, if you may call that clever.
Depends on who you think its competitors are - deepseek-chat ($0.27/M in; $1.10/M out) is twice as expensive as Gemini 2.5 Flash ($0.15; $0.60) but far cheaper than Claude Sonnet 4 ($3; $15).
That was a pretty good back to reality flex. There really isn't much of a market for expensive products. An inexpensive product that has a few tradeoffs will probably have the advantage. Given how proficient China is at accessing technology resources, it seems likely to me that any chip sanctions against them will probably not be effective.
I don't know the exact cost-breakdown, but they've come up with a few really inspiring and qualitatively high value papers that demonstrate how they further increased efficiency at their scale. Along with it they also published quite a few repositories with fully open-source code.
I stopped using ChatGPT as it was just reinforcing my prompts and not ever giving deeper insights, except something I call manipulative behaviour.
DeepSeek was seriously cool, but it started behaving similar to Google Gemini Pro, which just tries to be lazy, if you give it a hard task to chew on. It basically gives you patch-files instead of printing out the whole code, which is more tedious doing manually, than c/p the code.
It also started indexing our private repository and some corporate repositories that were on GitHub behind MFA and stringent lock. Definitely illegal.
> It also started indexing our private repository and some corporate repositories that were on GitHub behind MFA and stringent lock. Definitely illegal.
What is "it" in this context, the DeepSeek weights? Sounds like you're talking about some application, but AFAIK, DeepSeek doesn't maintain any applications, only their API + released weights.
ChatGPT indexed our private GitHub repositories and those our corporations I worked with.
> as it was just reinforcing my prompts and not ever giving deeper insights, except something I call manipulative behaviour.
Try telling Deepseek you want to murder political dissidents. In my experiments Deepseek will start enthusiastically reinforcing your prompts.
Is this a reference to something? Political dissidents relative to which state? Does it change if you swap out the states? How did you discover this to begin with? Why did you initially suggest murdering political dissidents?
this comment really raises so many questions I must have missed something
Still, chatbots are just as vulnerable to state-driven propaganda as the rest of us. Probably even more so. I imagine if you just referred to dissidents as "terrorists" the rhetoric would fit right in in most opinion pages across the globe. The distinction between "terrorist" and "dissident" and "freedom fighter" seems quite subjective. I probably would avoid such heavily connoted floating signifiers if you want the chatbot to be useful.
LLMs have nothing to contribute to political discourse aside from regurgitation of propaganda. Almost by definition.
11 replies →
It just simply does its job. We can add sorts of arbitrary safeguards, but then what is the point of using an LLM? Perhaps local modals are the future, because reverse engineers may not even be able to use the new Claude (just read its system prompt to not help with backdoors, and so forth).
2 replies →
> DeepSeek was seriously cool, but it started behaving similar to Google Gemini Pro
You should be able to use the version of DeepSeek that you prefer indefinitely if you host it yourself or choose that specific version with your preferred provider.
How did it have access to your private repo and how did you find out?
I made a video of it with a friend. The repository is of a large corporate automative industry company. I also have my own private repositories which were always private and OpenAI printed my files in the first prompt. When I prompted again it acted as if it didn't know. But my friend tried on his account and could access the Corp and my private repository without ever being linked.
The Corporate repository was of Volkswagen. It's quite serious of a breach. I only gave it the name of the repository and it printed the files, which shouldn't be possible.
Maybe OpenAI exploits Microsoft to access GitHub fully to train their AI on all of humanity's code for free, violating privacy, security, IP and copyright.
2 replies →
>It basically gives you patch-files instead of printing out the whole code
I've noticed on the Aider leaderboard that Google Gemini Pro has an "Edit Format" listed as "diff-fenced" and things like ChatGPT have "architect" edit format where Aider asks separate "architect" and "code" models. Seems like Gemini Pro prefers the diff format.
I met a Googler when I was in Dubai for an event and he shared that he and others had access to LLMs internally for many years before it was made popular by OpenAI.
I know Google has an internal AI everything policy, maybe they internally have awesome tools to rearchitect everything based on diffs and in the typical google way they adapted it to their own internal tools. You know, Google.. like they don't give a damn about the user, the product design or actually anything other than profit/roi.
So many great discontinued products.. I think they killed RSS.
The diff-fenced is iirc specific to Gemini models, they really don’t like the file path outside of the fence. The architect mode still uses one of the other edit format, the prompt just ends up a little different.
1 reply →
You should self host not trust a third party application if you run into either of those things. The weights are open. DeepSeek didn’t change, the application you’re accessing it through did.
Or use an enterprise-ready service. Bedrock, firecracker, etc
I like your thinking. Nobody can use ChatGPT offline or retrain it, but DeepSeek is fully opensource. It's technology, I don't care which country made it, if it's high quality engineering, it's just that. The data it was trained on doesn't matter if you can train a wholly new model using the exact same principles and stack they opensourced with your own data. Which is really awesome.
I use openrouter.ai to have no timeouts and offtimes, since DeepSeek seems to get DDoS attacks somehow, or there are too many users, idk.
3 replies →
Had Gemini 2.5 Pro preview running in agent mode in VSCode on a 3000+ line file. It patched it to about 200 lines with a comment in the middle: "// the rest of the code is unchanged".
Exactly my experience too and it's soo annoying. It doesn't matter how you prompt it or what your system prompt is. It tries to end the session as early as possible, claiming to have fulfilled everything. Although it just causes more work for the user, less for itself. The tokens saved are easily multiplied by the amount you have to prompt it again.
This I experienced partially in DeepSeek since their recent update too, not as aggresively as in Gemini 2.5 Pro, but similar lazyness or cleverness, if you may call that clever.
ChatGPT is reinforcing your prompts, DeepSeek is cool but starts acting lazy like Gemini.
So what are you working with now? Deepseek or something else?
Depends on who you think its competitors are - deepseek-chat ($0.27/M in; $1.10/M out) is twice as expensive as Gemini 2.5 Flash ($0.15; $0.60) but far cheaper than Claude Sonnet 4 ($3; $15).
1/10-20th is a more realistic ratio.
That was a pretty good back to reality flex. There really isn't much of a market for expensive products. An inexpensive product that has a few tradeoffs will probably have the advantage. Given how proficient China is at accessing technology resources, it seems likely to me that any chip sanctions against them will probably not be effective.