Comment by crossroadsguy
9 months ago
There was some Ubuntu (or Linux) forum where I had asked a question and I wanted an app or something (I can't recall now) which was easier to use and do repeatedly. Most of the people were replying with stuff like "why can't you just do <something that involves lots of CLI and more than an hour ro so>" or on the lines of it.
I, someone extremely new to Linux (hell, new to computers), was bewildered. Then a commenter replied with something that helped me and exactly what I needed. He added a note directed towards others which went something like - the battle for Linux as THE desktop OS was sabotaged by its most ardent practitioners.
This definitely happened with Arch. For some reason they killed the noob guide (which I helped maintain). It was a great guide that helped people go from noob to kinda knowing linux.
You can't have wizards without first having noobs.
Why gatekeep people from enjoying the same thing you enjoy?
Well, I guess all that gave us EndeavourOS and Manjaro. But still, we need more places for people to learn that nitty gritty stuff.
Hell, I'd love to learn more about the hardware hacking the OP is talking about. Love to learn about those GPU hardware modifications people do. I know it's hacker news, but I'd actually love to learn about that hacker stuff. If these companies are going to continue to fight this hard to prevent us from owning the things we buy, it sounds like an important thing to learn. Or else we're soon going to have robot butlers that are just sending lidar maps and high resolution photos of our homes back to these companies. We don't need elitest pricks, we need wizards teaching noobs
Regarding gatekeeping, there was one webforum I used to visit when I was a kid, which I think approached this in an interesting way. Most of the boards were available to the public, general users could post in them (other than the one that announced rules of course), but there was a subforum which could only be accessed by those who had demonstrated some minimum level of competency. Specifically this was a forum about programs for bots for a for-kids MMO (said MMO didn’t really have PVP that depended or gear or levels or anything, or a way of trading items or anything like that, so there wasn’t any player economy. So I think these cheats were pretty harmless. Well, except for the people making bots move in arrangements to make offensive symbols.). The process was, one could submit a program one had made that did something interesting, and they would judge whether it was sufficient to be allowed in to the subforum.
I think this had the benefits of:
• allowing people who don’t want to bother with newbies to not have to, if they stay in the subforum
• still having the places for “people who are skilled and willing to work with/help newbies” and “people who are skilled but don’t want to deal with newbies much” be in a sense the same place, while also having the place for the latter be the same as a place for newbies.
• provides an incentive for newbies to become skilled.
_____
Of course, this method doesn’t work if no one is willing to engage with the newbies. But I think it’s probably fine/reasonable to keep outsiders away from a few things provided that there is a reasonable path in.
Though, I’m not advocating that the approach that forum used be implemented everywhere. I just think it is something that a community could reasonably choose, depending on their priorities.
C'mon name the game. I need to know now.
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Something I know from a past role is that teaching is demanding, and for any broad audience you've got to consider the range of different thought processes that you may need to provide your knowledge in different ways. As someone trying to increase my linux skills (and assess the best one for potentially migrating/supporting my parents) it doesn't help that a lot of linux documentation comes across as barebones, or very concise about the one way it's meant to be done with a certain distro (plus potentially outdated on an earlier version), and a general lack of explanations.
As example toy projects I'm trying to test out dnf-automatic because I'd prefer not to have the admin work of manually keeping on top of routine updates, but there's little feedback (although so far that's better than pacman on Arch which specifically expects atdmin), or learning why a distro has set up swap/zram/zswap the way they have, what the limits are on that config, how to measure what my system uses and if/how to adjust it. There's little guidance within the system to get you up to that level, and to open another can of worms the terminal-first approach in linux's DNA usually doesn't present anything but the bare essentials for whatever tool you're running, but any extra/wasteful information shown could nudge you where the next step is.
But rewarding. What makes it less rewarding online is we don't see the benefits. We don't hear thanks. Which we should say more often
One thing I try to encourage is writing documentation. People are extremely resilient to this and I'm not sure why. It has a lot of benefits. I forget what I did, it helps remind me.
But people often claim no one else will read it or it's obvious. I think we've all dealt with the frustration of dealing with undocumented code. Seen how much time it takes because of the lack of documentation. Why doesn't this encourage writing documentation?
When docs are scarce and you have access, add a little. It can be built over time. Some is better than none.
The other thing I do is write notes. I put a lot of them in my dotfiles actually. This means I keep them just text (or link for images) and these can get carried around with me. I hand them out frequently and am always happy to have others contribute or share theirs but honestly I don't know a single other person that does this. But I find it extremely helpful. I reference them all the time. Granted, they're written for me but I think more people should.
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> Why gatekeep people from enjoying the same thing you enjoy?
That's an easy one to answer: they will eventually demand that Foo changes and remove things they do not like. It has happened to all media, it has happened to all software, you can be damn sure it will happen to something as modular as a Linux distribution.
This seems to falsely assume that technical users are more aligned with whatever the status quo is, and non-technical users are the ones who are looking to change things. In reality, technical users become technical users because they want to make changes, and 'casual' users just use whatever app/OS/etc is given to them, as-is.
Having bad or no support for your software isn't some good way to keep it 'pure', it's just keeping it less useful/relevant. Linux is OSS: fork it if you don't like something new, but don't hurt the ecosystem.
Deliberately hamstringing software or documentation so that others will stay away and not make changes is literally antithetical to OSS as a philosophy.
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It was rhetorical
Really, I'm calling people dumb for gatekeeping the things they enjoy. Things change regardless.
With Linux, you can have your distorts. Because Linux people tend to understand that you don't build "products" but environments. Places to build from. To build in. It's not always but it's a good idea. You can't make a product for everyone, but you can make an environment for everyone. It's why a computer or a phone is so universal but iOS or Android isn't
Well Linux can be used to plot crimes against humanity, can’t it? Can’t let that happen, think of the children.
> You can't have wizards without first having noobs.
But maybe some wizards feel miserable when they are forced to interact 95% of the time with noobs, instead of other wizards? Maybe they want a circle for themselves, as a basic human need?
I'd follow "Thumper's Rule"[0].
If you don't want to interact, you don't have to comment or engage.
Fwiw, I'm a big fan of having private spaces and niches. It helps to filter this out. I think it is a mistake we make in our community designs, that everything needs to be public or whole cloth (e.g. Reddit doesn't allow subdivisions within the community). I do like that HN puts a threshold on the downvote, but I'd even like a lower threshold on the upvote. Allows people to wade into the community.
But yeah, I think there is a problem now that the majority of communities have no ability to self filter and self form hierarchies. Without this, noob voices tend to drown out experts and frankly, noobs begin to believe they are experts. I'm sure we've all seen the typical CS stereotype of "read first line of wikipedia article, assume I know the rest" type of person...
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fYngTUZeUQ
Oh I am so pissed about the noob guide thing. I have intentionally removed my post about my bad interactions with the Arch community from my website, but if you're curious it's in the history: https://github.com/VegaDeftwing/OpGuidesHugoSrc/commit/dcc07...
The TL;DR: Arch gets harder year over year as the number of ways to setup/options for each piece of your system grows. Hell, even picking a bootloader among 10 options is confusing. A guide that just at least says "This is common for X, this for Y, the others are interesting and may be worth trying. If you don't want to investigate now, use X" Is DESPRATELY needed.
I tried to have that on my site, and a pretty high level arch forum admin came buy and told me to delete my website and made a PR just deleting the page. It was honestly one of the most rude and hateful interactions I've ever had online.
> Hell, I'd love to learn more about the hardware hacking the OP is talking about. Love to learn about those GPU hardware modifications people do. I know it's hacker news, but I'd actually love to learn about that hacker stuff.
This, I feel like ever since the fall of Twitter, a true hackerspace has been missing for awhile.
> For some reason they killed the noob guide (which I helped maintain).
Is it up or archived anywhere?
You can probably find an archive somewhere but it's utility is probably low. It did need constant maintenance. Which was fine. There were enough of us.
In fact, I even got more people to contribute. I used to say the best way to learn Linux is to install arch. To come back to me after your third failure. It's rough, but you learn a ton and accelerate really fast. Telling people to expect failure helps. They know it's not them being dumb and they won't ruin their computer. Plus, they have a safety net and I promise I will help, but the real lesson is the struggle.
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hear hear
Yet telling someone to open regedit, find some deeply-buried branch, create a new binary key, rename it to SetFocusRefreshTimeout and set its value to 0xFFFF is... desktop usability.
It's not, there is nothing essential a regular desktop user needs to edit in the registry directly. For better or worse, Windows has standard framework for things like GUI widgets, settings storage, installation paths. It might support decades of those standards, but I'm pretty sure you know that Linux kernel and Linux the distro are very different, and much more numerous, and logically do things differently.
> It's not, there is nothing essential a regular desktop user needs to edit in the registry directly.
I think that this reads better "there is nothing that Microsoft wants regular users to touch that they need to edit in the registry directly." The distinction between the two doesn't really matter as long as the user's interests are reasonably aligned with Microsoft's, but the modern Microsoft-the-ad-company approach to Windows means that this is not at all true.
Giving them a link to a msi that does that is pretty user intuitive.
If they have been properly introduced to PCs it’s unlikely they will use that. I myself would use it after scanning it by eye for trickiness.
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>the battle for Linux as THE desktop OS was sabotaged by its most ardent practitioners.
Don't believe that for a second. Industry de-facto standards are a result of power dynamics, and the actual users of the thing wield orders of magnitude less power than they project. If a corporation like MS or Google wanted Linux desktop to happen, no amount of gatekeepers could actually hold the gates.
The reason why Windows is the de-facto standard is because Microsoft put a lot of behind-the-scenes work into making it a de-facto standard. I am meaning them sabotaging everything else, treating the status quo with the famous EEE, many business deals with governments to use it, put it in school curricula, having manufacturers preinstall it to PCs, and bend every piece of connected tech to Windows' direction - hardware drivers, computer games, specialty software, even the internet.
That is how Windows got its desktop users, and how Linux and others didn't really.
> Most of the people were replying with stuff like "why can't you just do <something that involves lots of CLI and more than an hour ro so>" or on the lines of it.
More than an hour? That's very strange, enough that I wonder if you had the right impression of things.
Usually the reason to go with command line is that even though it might be bewildering to look at, slamming in the command only takes a moment and you don't need to do any button-hunting.
It's a tradeoff, is what I'm saying. But you seem to be describing a situation where it's significantly worse in every way. Why would a bunch of people all be on that bad plan?
> More than an hour?
That's usually how long it takes me to get an FFMPEG command I'm planning to use more than once right
Well I sure hope they didn't just say "use ffmpeg" and gesture vaguely at a couple filters.
If you give someone an already-done ffmpeg command it should be straightforward to use.
That may be. But the CLI guys have had the last laugh, no? An LLM can work through a terminal with decades of stability much better than it can poke around constantly changing product UIs.
What's needed is a Dropbox analogue for Linux -- something that doesn't do anything that isn't already possible, but that makes things that are possible accessible to non-specialists.
It looked like SteamOS was going to be a contender, but apparently not.
This is impossible by design. Decades ago there were some distributions that had this as a goal (e.g. Mandrake, Suse), they included an application similar to the Windows Control Panel to manage everything. But such applications can never reach into all the corners, unless the distribution is severely locked down. The example of this extreme is... macOS. And still, there are some cases where dropping into the command line is the better or even the only option.
Back on Linuxland, the userbase realized this about two decades ago, when Ubuntu launched. Having a nice default experience was considered better than having easy tweakability, because Ubuntu could also be configured to the fullest extent in the classic Linux way of reaching into the guts of the system and rearranging things to taste. Not that I would ever recommend tweaking Ubuntu too much, but it can be done.
What about the other end? Most people who like fiddling with Linux by reaching into its internals have settled on distributions such as Arch, where this way of managing the system is expected and thus the distribution works to ensure this experience is as easy and predictable as it can be, by providing a good happy path experience for common scenarios, and providing top-notch documentation for common and uncommon customization options, or minority hardware platforms and devices.
The control panel doesn't need to reach all corners.
Just enough corners to cover day-to-day usability so that new users would be able to help themselves if they get stumped.
That set of corners has been pretty much covered by Windows 95 when it comes to the GUI.
For tweakability, command-line interface isn't unfriendly — the commands are.
People love talking to ChatGPT. This tells you how friendly typing interface is.
I'm not saying that natural language processing should necessarily be a feature of the interface (although it could make a lot of things much smoother), but FFS, an interactive dialogue-based CLI is a much friendlier thing than "figure out the right incantation" paradigm.
Does Android not fulfill that role already?
One reason that people often overlook is that it's much easier (and much less error prone for the user) to give an instruction that uses the cli instead of a GUI tool, e.g. if someone would ask how to add a new user who's in the usb group on Linux, I would always tell the person `adduser --ingroup usb [username] ` instead of giving the GUI instructions which are longer and depend on what desktop the person uses.
If you think a single add user command is comparable to things like use grapheneos or adb usb injection chains then you’ve missed the point here.
It once took me a few hours to get a printer working on Ubuntu, never again.
That problem plagues every OS. Fortunately, my 14 year old canon networked printer/scanner/fax works in fedora 42 without any configuration at all. As long as it sees it on the network. Scans too! I was surprised about the scanning lol.
The brother wifi laser printer I have works on everything without any installation at all. Windows, mac, linux, my phones.
To be fair, printers suck everywhere. I hate printers.
"... and just recompile the kernel!"