Comment by JimDabell
8 months ago
From the readme:
> That fork was necessary since toxic elements within Xorg projects, moles from certian big corp are boycotting any substantial work on Xorg, in order to destroy the project, to elimitate competition of their own products. (classic "embrace, extend, extinguish" tactics)
> This is an independent project, not at all affiliated with BigTech or any of their subsidiaries or tax evasion tools, nor any political activists groups, state actors, etc. It's explicitly free of any "DEI" or similar discriminatory policies. Anybody who's treating others nicely is welcomed.
Doesn't "DEI" basically mean treating others nicely?
No and it never has. The default position on the internet, the one technologists working on open source always took, is that only the ideas matter and if your ideas are good you'll be included. DEI became popular because that wasn't good enough for certain groups of people who consistently failed to produce good ideas and wanted to wedge themselves in anyway.
Yeah, from a non-US citizen views, this type of policy feel like target discrimination against certain groups of individuals.
And the message sent is disastrous. Personally I am part of people who have big advantages with actual DEI policy, but I am firmly against that, because I want to be employed for my skills, not because I fit a quota or anything like that.
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Any policy can be abused, including DEI. But as a whole, I think DEI has done enormous good.
reading too deeply into it, it's basically an interjection. it doesn't refer to any meaningful facet of objective reality, it only exists according to the socio-political hallucinations of americans. doesn't matter if it's said positively or negatively, it's just a virtue signal long devoid of meaning. a bird's mating dance, if you will, but for burger-eaters.
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Pretty sure it did, unfortunately it got swung to an extreme extent in some circles :(
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No it means treat minorities (gays, women, people of color) nicely and others (straight people, men, white people) badly.
This dude is definitely into some hysterical right wing conspiracies. I remember he got yelled at by Linus Torvalds on the LKML for trying to spread anti-vax bs.
https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/6/10/957
I always find it ironic how people like this non-stop whine about "politics in mah FOSS" or video games or w/e, but will turn around and write a manifesto in the README drenched in right wing politically charged slop.
ultimately I really don't care what they spend their time doing, some people still want X11 and if they can keep it running then good for them. I use Wayland because it looks a lot better and is a lot smoother. Its that simple.
Oh this link is gold, thanks :) Alread the completely unrelated mention of DEI on the reasoning for a fork, that's supposedly about doing big changes that are suppressed on the original project, is a pretty damning sign. Knowing he is also an anti-vaxxer nut-job says everything you need to know about his judgement. Sure the fork isn't "medical" or otherwise related to vaccines, but at least adequate judgement is needed for anything.
> I use Wayland because it looks a lot better
Sorry but, what? Wayland doesn't have any concept of a "look" that I'm aware of, so how would one tell the difference?
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The DEI in DEI actually means conformity of thought. It's oddly eugenical and does not foster "diverse ideas"
That is the exact opposite of what it means.
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DEI is another selector added to "meritocracy" vs "nepotism".
You either give the job to the best candidate, your friend, or a minority.
It has nothing to do with "nice". You can be nice, or an ass. DEI doesn't preclude you being either.
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> moles from certian big corp are boycotting any substantial work on Xorg, in order to destroy the project
That's what I've always thought. The "X11 developers" pushing for Wayland weren't original developers so much as RedHat "maintainers," who (understandably) wanted a frontier to explore rather than janitorial work. All I know for certain is that X11 (even as of 15 years ago) mostly worked, while Wayland of 2025 is still full of headaches & breakages.
X did not "just work" for me 10 years ago, and neither is Wayland "still full of headaches and breakages"
I've had no substantial problems because of Wayland in the last, like, 5 years.
Thanks for your anecdotes. Here's a couple of counter-anecdotes:
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X has "just worked" for me since at least ubuntu 8.04 (that's 2008, april, over 17 years ago, for those counting), probably earlier.
I don't recall having any particular issues with X on the fedora machines I ran before I switched to ubuntu 8.04, but I don't recall clearly enough to be able to confidently say that I didn't have any X issues.
OTOH, I also don't specifically recall having X issues since some time around Red Hat 6 or so, which would be around 1998 or 1999, so it might be more like 25-26 years since X didn't "just work" for me.
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About a year ago, I heard that wayland might be approaching a usable state. So I decided to give it a try on a raspberry pi that I was setting up.
It took literally about 15 minutes before I ran into a problem where I wasn't able to do something I've been doing for decades on X. And I want to stress that I was hoping it would work - I was not out to find a reason not to use wayland, I just happened to run into one inside of about 15 minutes.
I spent a couple of hours trying to figure out how to do what I wanted to do on wayland. I put a nontrivial amount of effort into trying to solve the issue on wayland. During the course of this, I found several different/conflicting pieces of advice, none of which worked for me. I think IIRC I found one option which sounded promising but which meant recompiling the compositor, or something very-nontrivial like that.
I balked at that and switched the system over to X.
And the problem instantly went away, and everything started working again. And that machine currently has an uptime of well over a hundred days.
I would love for wayland to be a thing that actually works to the point that it's a viable replacement for X, but I grow more and more skeptical every year that this doesn't happen. I Expected it like a decade ago.
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Nvidia, vmxgfx. I would run wayland if i could.
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2016-01-23 https://github.com/MaartenBaert/ssr/issues/431
2019-01-04 (only took 3 1/2 years to resolve!) https://github.com/flathub/us.zoom.Zoom/issues/22
2020-03-07 https://github.com/vkohaupt/vokoscreenNG/issues/51
2020-03-07 https://github.com/obsproject/obs-studio/issues/2471
2020-03-24 https://github.com/jitsi/jitsi-meet/issues/6389
2023-09 https://www.jwz.org/blog/2023/09/wayland-and-screen-savers/
2023-11-17 https://github.com/raspberrypi/bookworm-feedback/issues/149
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Most of the stuff that's come out of freedesktop.org always seemed to make things less usable. I'm glad to see people are finally giving up on it.
> Most of the stuff that's come out of freedesktop.org always seemed to make things less usable.
I thought so too. I also thought they have many problems and do not help very well. I mostly try to avoid them.
(There are problems with X window system as well (and with Xlib), but still it seems the freedesktop had made things that are designed in a worse way.)
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I'm not going to pretend judging people by their skin color (or any other bogus criteria like those outlined by the hacker ethics) is not discriminatory.
Whatever DEI was meant for, due to its unagreeable practices its unrecoverably burned into the ground.
I, for one, am in favour of DEI pillars such as pregnancy leave and accessibility to the disabled. Especially the latter seems pretty important when it comes to developing a core component of a computer interface.
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I think is good that they don't use DEI. (When one side is DEI and other side is discrimination and racist, both sides are bad.) They do not seem to exclude anyone because of this, and they said they aren't excluding anyone because of this (and hopefully they are not lying). They should include people, and DEI is not a very good way to do it.
I also think is good that they had deliberately being trying to avoid other problems, so that they will not be affiliated with the BigTech and the related stuff.
Hopefully they will actually be able to improve it.
Seems to just open the door for discrimination under false pretense. "well their code wasn't good. Nothing to do with their identity." We've seen it time and time again that it's confusing why so many reject reality.
You missed the part "Anybody who's treating others nicely is welcomed." (conveniently).
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