Comment by demosthanos
6 months ago
The reason that we require you to deduct an expense over years for some things is because they have a resale value that needs to be accounted for. It's not a pure expense because you have an asset with real value that came out of the purchase. Employee time has no resale value. Once used it's gone, so employee salaries are expenses, not investments.
The only possible justification for the Section 174 R&D changes is that employees working in R&D theoretically are producing something which does have a resale value, so there's a small tax dodge enabled by direct-expensing your R&D costs but then ending up with an infinitely-copyable asset that came out of it.
If that's what you're saying, then I'd reply to that argument by saying that paying humans to design new things has historically been a business strategy that the government has wanted to incentivize in a way that buying and holding physical assets has not been. I've seen no justification for the government deciding that from 2022 on we should actively discourage R&D, it just seems to be a mistake.
Software is like Art, it doesn't have value until sold or can be used. If they sell services based on the software, they are generating revenue and then taxation on that revenue can occur.
Same as if they sell the software, either as a copy or ownership.
But not being able to take salary as a business expense seems like as thing that would happen if software in and of itself has value, which is largely does not.
> But not being able to take salary as a business expense seems like as thing that would happen if software in and of itself has value, which is largely does not.
To me it seems like a thing that just wouldn't happen. Forget software.
Say you own a McDonald's, and as part of your operations you have some people on staff to take orders, prepare food, and clean the bathrooms. Why are their wages not a deductible business expense?
If the answer is "they are, don't be stupid", then... what exactly was the R&D tax break?
The software itself has no value, it's the licence to use the software.
> I've seen no justification for the government deciding that from 2022 on we should actively discourage R&D, it just seems to be a mistake.
Removing a specific tax exemption to create a level playing field isn’t discouraging R&D.
That’s the thing, every year such exemptions exist the US taxpayers are handing out money. Just because we subsidize say EV’s or Corn doesn’t mean that’s the baseline forever more.
> Removing a specific tax exemption to create a level playing field isn’t discouraging R&D.
If the end result of removing this exemption is that there is less R&D done in the US, then yes, empirically, removing the exemption discourages R&D. Assuming the mass layoffs were indeed fueled by the removal of this exemption (I don't know if the article is correct or not), then it is reasonable to assert that it is true that removing the exemption has reduced the amount of R&D done.
Or, you could also say that the "default state" is some low level of R&D, and the tax exemption encouraged and incentivized more of it.
Either way you slice it, though, the status quo prior to 2022 was some level of encouraged/incentivized R&D. That status quo changed to encourage/incentivize less R&D, and companies have followed these lack of incentives and have fired a lot of their R&D staff. Is that a good thing for the US? I can't see how it could be.
> empirically, removing the exemption discourages R&D.
Not clearing a road means fewer people use it, but you not going out with a shovel to clear a public roads isn’t you discouraging their use nor is you canceling your plans to clear said roads.
Having zero subsidies is the default situation.
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Level playing field for whom? Who does incentivizing R&D disadvantage?
Restaurants weren't competing with R&D-heavy corporations in any way. R&D-heavy corporations competed with each other, on a level playing field where all of them can build new stuff without having to pay taxes on negative income in their early years.
The only change this has made is un-level the playing field in favor of old, established corporations that already have the revenue streams in place to fund their new R&D projects.
> Who does incentivizing R&D disadvantage?
Taxpayers who end up with the bill and every company is competing for workers, office space, etc. Incentives across decades shift what people study, what business get created, etc. R&D sounds great abstractly, but it’s not some panacea where unlimited funding results in pure gains.
The economy is generally more efficient without central planning, and dumping money into anything that can be classified as R&D is simply inefficient.
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What about construction worker and other labor time to build a factory? That’s the analogy being made here by the tax code: Software whose development is a capital expense with value returned over time.
From a quick search it appears to me like construction labor is deductible as an expense in the year it is incurred. Do you have evidence that says otherwise?
My reading of § 1.263A-1 is that construction labor must be capitalized.
§ 1.263A-1.a.3.A indicates that it's in scope: Real property and tangible personal property produced by the taxpayer
§ 1.263A-1.e.2 specifies that Direct Costs are subject to capitalization: Producers. Producers must capitalize direct material costs and direct labor costs.
(I'm just a taxpayer, not a tax lawyer or even an EA or CPA.)
What tax code references or treasury regulations did you find to support your belief that construction labor can be expensed in the year performed?
> Dear ChatGPT, is construction labor deductible as an expense in the year it is incurred according to GAAP? Please answer in a few lines.
Under GAAP, construction labor is not immediately deductible as an expense in the year it is incurred if it relates to the construction of a long-term asset (like a building). Instead, it is capitalized as part of the asset's cost and then expensed over time through depreciation. Only labor costs not tied to asset creation (e.g., routine maintenance) are expensed as incurred.
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But the employee time that had a one time use was turned into software. That software is the thing that has value longer than "right now"
And the value of that software will be taxed if and when it starts to draw cash.
> I've seen no justification for the government deciding that from 2022 on we should actively discourage R&D, it just seems to be a mistake.
My understanding is that this was done in order to balance the tax bill passed by the Trump admin due to a requirement to be budget neutral. Cut tax revenue here, increase tax revenue there.