Comment by netcan
6 months ago
What are the implications of this.
As I understand accounting, this means that reported profits would be higher, and therefore incur more corporate income tax liability. Cash flow isn't effected besides tax.
A startup isn't likely to be making a profit yet, under either accounting rule. Is there a benefit to reporting a larger loss?
My first thought is that this effects Google and suchlike, not startups. But... assuming steady state "r&d" expenditure... it's not that much. Everything gets deducted within 5 years anyway.
So... maybe this hinders more modestly profitable, and fast growing companies most. Those that can't afford to carry 5 years worth of paper profits as easily.
Otoh... I am curious about how the difference between r&d expenses and operational ones are determined irl.
This should be quantifiable. How much extra assets are software companies actually booking?
It seems questionable that this "silent killer" had actually affected employment so much.
> A startup isn't likely to be making a profit yet, under either accounting rule. Is there a benefit to reporting a larger loss?
As an example, A two person software startup; both drawing a salary, each making $100,000 per year. Each doing things related to software development.
Startup brings in 200,000K in revenue.
Under pre Section 174 changes, the profit is zero. Both salaries are expensible in the year they were incurred.
Post Section 174, the profit is now $160,000 each year. Now they pay taxes on $160,000, even though they literally have no money left over because revenues equaled expenditures.
At 25% tax rate, that’s $40,000 in taxes, for a business that made literally no money.
That’s why this is so devastating to small software businesses; unless you’re highly profitable and have cash reserves, this change hits hard.
Wait, salary costs do not count as costs for the year they're made in? That is completely nuts, no matter what kind of company you have.
Although for a startup it might be least bad, because for their first few years, their revenue might well be closer to zero; they tend to burn money, sometimes for quite a while.
They count as costs, but towards a capital expense. The expectation is that that expenditure resulted in the creation of a valuable asset (and not one which was sold for $200,000).
Revenue: $200,000 Expenses: -$200,000 Assets: $200,000
Net income: $200,000
You’re allowed to say ‘ah, but over the year the value of that $200,000 asset actually fell by 1/5’:
Asset depreciation: -$40,000
So your net income is now $160,000
You owe taxes on that income.
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Yeah, this provision is a complete fuck up.
This example only really has the emotional impact it does because of the specific numbers used, but doesn't really generalize for an arbitrary N.
Clearly if two software engineers build a product that brings in $10M, and each pay themselves $5M, it doesn't seem so outrageous that the can't really claim they're running "a business that made literally no money." Clearly in this second example the problem is that the engineers are paying themselves way too high given the return on their efforts.
What this means is that software engineers will be required to bring in more value to justify their high pay. In your example, it simply means that a software engineer that brings in $100,000 of value to the company, probably shouldn't be paid $100,000.
This seems entirely reasonable to me, and doubly so when I consider how many large corporate teams (who I think will ultimately be impacted more than startups) has huge numbers of highly paid engineers not doing all that much.
In most startups I've worked in it was pretty common for engineers to be delivering multiples of their cost in value, and in every big company I've worked in, it was very common to be delivering fractions of one's cost in value.
In case you don't understand: obviously you still pay income tax. What you suggest would mean you now pay income tax on that $10M, which is going to be 40% or even 50% depending, far higher than corporate tax.
So with your suggested tactic the engineers get $2.55 million each. The rest, $4.5 million, is tax.
If those 2 engineers paid themselves $0, and instead paid the $10 million as dividends, they'd get 4.25 million each, and only 1.5 million would be paid as tax.
(Yes, this is a simplification, both situations are artificial and in both cases there'd be other taxes to pay, however, they'd be similar in both cases)
> Post Section 174, the profit is now $160,000 each year. Now they pay taxes on $160,000, even though they literally have no money left over because revenues equaled expenditures.
They have the $200k they pulled from their startup, far more than what most people earn. If you make enough to pay yourself $100k then you make enough to pay taxes.
The amounts are irrelevant. It would be the exact same situation if all amounts were divided by e.g. 10: paying taxes on non-existent profits.
They do pay taxes. They each pay personal income tax on their $100k.
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That was my first thought as well, but on second thought I can see how this might cause problems:
For established profitable software companies there was a cliff edge in 2022 when this change kicked in. Staff costs for previous years had already been fully expensed while only 20% of the current year's costs could be deducted.
Second, any sudden increase in research expenditures is now discouraged. This could make companies less nimble.
For unprofitable startups it could cause issues during a phase of very high revenue growth. They could suddenly be liable to pay corporation tax in spite of the fact that they are not profitable in any reasonable sense of the word. It would smooth out later, but that may be too late for some.
What I do not believe for a second is that this is causing major job losses. Companies like Microsoft or Meta do not reduce research or software development just because there is a temporary tax hit. It could be an extra incentive for an efficiency drive I guess.
> For unprofitable startups it could cause issues during a phase of very high revenue growth.
So I guess my most question is "how this work irl?"
Say a new startup raises money and hires 20 people. Pays $5m in salaries, office space and such. All 20 people are developing a software product. Are 100% of this startups expenses amorotized?
Then they sell the product. They receive $2m in revenue. What does the P&L look like.
If they hire 20 devs in their first year paying $5m in salaries, only $1m or $500k (if the mid-year convention applies) would count as a business expense in that first year.
If their revenue was $2m, that would leave them with $1m (or $1.5m) of taxable profits unless that was eaten by other costs.
It doesn't have to be a problem, but if revenue grows fast and they go on another hiring spree in the following year then it could become a problem.
That said, if revenue grows so fast, it seems likely that they would have huge marketing and sales costs that could be expensed immediately. So maybe this isn't really a problem for many startups. I'm not sure.
1 million profit, while they have 3 million negative cashflow, that's exactly the problem. They can only take 20% of that 5 million in R&D investment as depreciation in the first year.
Your analysis is correct, but most software companies were mostly profitable or fast-growing. For every Google, there’s 1000 wordpress vendors you’ve never heard of.
In another year the initial shock will stabilize, but any growth now has a 5-year tax hit attached. And even Facebook doesn’t want to pay that if it doesn’t have to.
Google was reportedly amortizing (by choice) long before this was in effect, so while it might “affect them”, in practice it’s likely business as usual.
It depends on the department. My salary (in a mature product) was already amortized - I suspect the same is true of all their other mature products like Search, Maps, GMail, Chrome, YouTube, etc. But I think they were deducting salaries in the more research-like areas like Gemini, Jax, Assistant, etc. So there is net still a fairly large charge related to it, even if it isn't as large as it could be.
pardon my ignorance but why would they amortize some and not others?
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The R&D credits are deducted from Payroll taxes, so they impact pre-revenue startups as well.
I'm not an accountant, but as I understand it, you don't pay taxes on profits, but on revenue.
So previously, some 20% of all revenue would be owned as corporate income tax, and startups would deduct it all as they're spending much more on R&D than they owe in corporate income tax. But with this tax change, the deduction would be much lower (80% lower IIUC).
No, you pay taxes on profits. What this does is reduce your upfront deduction.
Yes, but the main thing here is that ALL software development is now "profit" in the short term. In theory you've developed a capital good that benefits you over time, hence the amortization.
Simplified 2021 example before 174:
Simplified 2022 example after 174:
Above example is year one of suddenly having these taxes, because if your software costs are the same or lower over time it gets easier. It's just extremely painful for smaller and especially fast growing companies like startups without a lot of cash, especially when interest rates are so high.
Accountants: If I am wrong about the above, please correct me
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> you don't pay taxes on profits, but on revenue.
That can't be right. It definitely isn't in my country.
If own a car dealership, and I sell a car for $50,000 that I bought from the manufacturer for $40,000, surely I would pay tax on the $10,000 profit? The tax on the the full $50,000 revenue might exceed my profit!
Welcome to the Democrat version of taxes. In Michigan, restaurant owners had to pay a tax on revenue and not profit around 2008 or so.
lots of retaurants went out of business overnight.
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If companies paid tax on revenue the US budget would be perfectly fine.
If companies paid tax on revenue, then there would be a tremendous incentive toward https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_integration , because you wouldn't be allowed to deduct the expenses paid to your suppliers.
Large companies always find a way to not pay taxes. It's the little guys that end up paying (a lot!) more, to the extend that it cripples and kills them. But transformative innovation happens with the little guys. As a result, this tax change cements monopolies for megacorps. They will be fine and still pay nothing.
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Yeah. Let's bankrupt grocery stores that operate with margins measured in single percents. If that.
I am so interested in what business you work in that you would think this could be true.