Comment by jasode
21 hours ago
>What’s an example of the kind of advice that doesn’t work?
For some people struggling with chronic lifelong procrastination, the oft-repeated advice from the author such as "Action leads to motivation, not the other way around." ... and similar variants such as, "Screw motivation, what you need is discipline!" ... and other related big picture ideas such as Dilbert cartoonist Scott Adams' "Systems instead of Goals" -- all do not work.
And adding extra rhetorical embellishments to the advice such as using the phrase "it's simple [...]", and using the word "[...] just [...]" as in:
- "Stopping procrastination isn't that hard to solve. It's simple. Just chop up the task into much smaller subtasks and just start on that tiny subtask. That will give you momentum to finish it."
... also doesn't work. Some procrastinators just procrastinate the initiation of starting that tiny subtask! For the few that actually do try to start with that first step, they'll quickly lose steam because of boredom/distraction/whatever and the overall task remains unfinished.
A lot of books and blogs about time management repeat the same advice that many procrastinators have all heard before and it doesn't work. The procrastinators understand the logic of the advice but it doesn't matter because there are psychological roadblocks that prevent them from following it.
EDIT reply to: >That doesn't mean the advice is bad,
I'm not saying the advice is wrong. Instead, I'm saying that some well-meaning people who give that repeated advice seem surprised that it doesn't work on some people. Because the advice givers believed "Action Precedes Motivation" worked on themselves, they automatically assume that imparting those same words to other procrastinators will also work. It often doesn't. The meta-analysis of that advice and why it sometimes doesn't work is not done because the people giving that advice are the ones who used that technique successfully. This creates a self-confirmation bias.
If somebody had “lifelong procrastination” and was routinely overwhelmed by simple tasks, my first thought would be to see if they are actually dealing with depression because it sounds like something bigger.
How is depression "bigger" that ADHD? That sounds super invalidating.
Being overwhelmed with simple task is typical ADHD behavior.
Lots of people with untreated ADHD develop depression as well. It is not either/or. Not to mention that there is a overlap in symptoms as well.
A diagnosis for ADHD will make sure that there no other physical or mental things present that could explain the symptoms instead. The will try to exclude anything else that could explain your struggles. They check for stuff like depression.
On the other hand, a depression diagnosis is just given out like candy. I never understood that.
Why wouldn't you ask WHY someone is depressed in the first place? I don't mean to invalidate people that are depressed. Sometimes that is just what is going on but it still vexes me because so many neurodivergent people will get diagnosis like "depression" because health care providers refuse to look further into it.
It is such an uphill battle get diagnosed with ADHD.
I didn’t say depression was bigger than adhd. Depression is bigger than “I just need a little productivity hack to get started”
Yes, when I struggled with motivation, procrastination, whatever you want to call it, I was diagnosed as depressed for years
Turns out, unmedicated ADHD, procrastination, and depression are all comorbid
Your points are well taken, though I want to nuance them a bit. My experience(with severe ADHD-C) is that this type of advice can work. It's just that it's not something you can just decide to start doing and immediately find success at. It's just a lot more complicated to get this off the ground, but it's possible. For some complex organisational system, you need to compile that system into "ADHD byte code" and for that, you need to bootstrap a compiler. Create an incredibly simple, extensible system which can do things your ADHD brain can't on its own. Then you need to find ways to force yourself to follow that system using various hacks like alarms tied to QR codes, body doubling, regular therapy or home visits, etc. then you can start implementing more complex structure in that system. And even the simple system is not gonna be easy. It's gonna take months of trying, failing, starting over. The ADHD brain is absolutely capable of developing habits(just look at the comorbidity rates between ADHD and various types of addiction), it's just a lot of work.
I'm in the process of doing this myself, and after 8 months, with many setbacks, I kinda have a base system I'm following that's significantly improving my quality of life and ability to keep up with everyday tasks. And it's still a struggle, but it's getting easier.
I'm writing a blog post about it currently, which will be more structured. It's about how I used my software dev skills to think about and tackle my ADHD(and other issues). Not about writing actual software(although software is involved), but imagining the brain exhibiting ADHD is a software system , identifying the "bugs", and combining concepts from software dev and behavioral/cognitive psychology to fix, or at least mitigate them.
This blog post could be finished two days from now, two years from now, or never. ADHD is still hard to live with, and I'm still quite dysfunctional. I guess if I do finish it, it'll be worth reading since I'll be on to something...
Please post the link when it’s ready - I’m very interested
better yet, share the link to your blog if you don't mind making it public so we can follow it and find the post when it's ready. (in my case you can also email me (see my profile) and i'll keep it to myself)
so what does work then?
isn't the problem here that the answer is very individual. for me for example some of the above things do work, and some don't. some of the time. it's like it depends and there is no clear answer even just for myself. knowing whether i had ADHD would not make any difference. i'd still not know what works.
for example i have seen tasks lists recommended as one way to deal with ADHD. because the lists help focus. isn't breaking things down into small steps the same thing? others here with ADHD also claim that specific suggestions work for them. so this isn't clear cut, and it doesn't make sense to just dismiss the suggestions.
you are right, there is more than just getting started. boredom and distractions are a problem too. but they are also a problem for "normal" people.
seems to me that the only thing we can do is to list a number of possible approaches, and let everyone pick what works best for them.
so back to the original question: what does work for people with ADHD?
> what does work for people with ADHD
Medication.
Not for everyone with ADHD. Only for 70% but that is still pretty good.
Besides that, again understanding how their brains work.
Neurotypical people don't have executive dysfunction. If they have a task that they know how to do, have the means to do, know they need to do, have the time to do and want to do, they can... just do it.
In fact neurotypical people can't even imagine it being any other way. For me with ADHD this sounds like a super power that I can't even comprehend having.
To simplify it very much, the ADHD brain is chronically understimultated. It lacks dopamine.
So easy boring tasks can be insanely painful. That is why stimulants work so well. It is not to get us "high", it so so we get the same level of stimulation as a neurotypical person watching paint dry.
But, we can still get over-stimulated as well so it is a balance act.
Neurotypical people mostly manage time and exhaustion, I guess but managing ADHD is managing your level of stimulation and focus and time tertiary.
You need to build activities into your routine that stimulate you, both mentally and physically. Washing your clothing can be much more taxing for you that fixing that complex bug no one else can figure out. ADHD can make the hard things easy and the easy things hard.
So yeah, ultimately every human is different and what works for one might not work for another. Yes some advice or trick for neurotypical people might also work for someone with ADHD but if you don't understand yourself you will not know what to user and what to dismiss and only hurt yourself.
Honestly, medication.
This looks like an answer from a procrastinator that actually developed a system to ensure they continue procrastinating long-term. Sure, suggestions of systems that could help with that won't help without a sometimes descomunal effort. That doesn't mean the advice is bad, just that it's hard and most people won't be able to overcome lifelong procrastination.
Your brain does not work the same way as my brain works. I am sorry, I know this is hard to believe but you will develop some actual emphathy once you accept the fact.
General advice for running a marathon will not for for someone who has no legs. I can't will my brain to work differently than it does. I can just learn to cope with my ADHD brain. And you being judgemental about it will not change that.
> Your brain does not work the same way as my brain works. I am sorry, I know this is hard to believe but you will develop some actual emphathy once you accept the fact.
I am also sorry but I do have ADHD and I'm no different than any other human being, and so aren't you. Many people just deal with it much better than you, but at least it means it is possible. Nobody said it is easy but people with ADHD have a tendency to think that people doing what they need to do have it easy, "they just do it". Well, no. That is not how it works. It is hard for everybody.
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