Comment by brabel

20 hours ago

Exactly, this thread is full of ignorant comments. I was talking about a certain class of race conditions that can be completely prevented in some languages, like Rust (through its aliasing rules that just make it impossible to mutate things from different threads simultaneously, among other things) and languages like Pony, for example, as the language uses the Actor model for concurrency, which means it has no locks at all (it doesn't need them), though I mentioned Dart because Dart Isolates look a lot like Actors (they are single-threaded but can send messages and receive messages from other "actors", similarly to JS workers).

3 comments

brabel

gf000 6 hours ago

In Java, racing a field is safe - you can only ever observe the value as one that was explicitly set by a thread, no tearing can happen. Safe data races can happen in Java, but you sometimes do want that (e.g. efficient concurrent algorithms), and avoiding it is not particularly hard (synchronized blocks are not the state of the art, but does make it easy to solve a problem).

Pony and Rust are both very interesting languages, but it is absolutely trivial to re-introduce locks with actors, even just accidentally, and then you are back at square 1. This is what you have to understand, their fundamental model has a one-to-one mapping to "traditional" multi-threading with locks. The same way you can't avoid the Turing model's gotchas, actors and stuff won't fundamentally change the landscape either.

mrkeen 4 hours ago

> avoiding it is not particularly hard (synchronized blocks are not the state of the art, but does make it easy to solve a problem).

Please have a read of https://joeduffyblog.com/2010/01/03/a-brief-retrospective-on... (and don't just skim it.)

(This was not written by some nobody, he does know what he talks about.)

  Contrast this elegant simplicity with the many pitfalls of locks:

  Data races. Like forgetting to hold a lock when accessing a certain piece of data. And other flavors of data races, such as holding the wrong lock when accessing a certain piece of data. Not only do these issues not exist, but the solution is not to add countless annotations associating locks with the data they protect; instead, you declare the scope of atomicity, and the rest is automatic.

  Reentrancy. Locks don’t compose. Reentrancy and true recursive acquires are blurred together. If a locked region expects reentrancy, usually due to planned recursion, life is good; if it doesn’t, life is bad. This often manifests as virtual calls that reenter the calling subsystem while invariants remain broken due to a partial state transition. At that point, you’re hosed.

  Performance. The tension between fine-grained locking (better scalability) versus coarse-grained locking (simplicity and superior performance due to fewer lock acquire/release calls) is ever-present. This tension tugs on the cords of correctness, because if a lock is not held for long enough, other threads may be able to access data while invariants are still broken. Scalability pulls you to engage in a delicate tip-toe right up to the edge of the cliff.

  Deadlocks. This one needs no explanation.

gf000 2 hours ago

Nice "gotcha".
But STM doesn't solve e.g. deadlocks - there are automatisms that can detect them and choose a different retry mechanism to deal with them (see the linked article), but my general point you really want to ignore is that none of these are silver bullets.
Concurrency is hard.