Comment by josephcsible
19 hours ago
> But is this actually any better than leaking them to Cloudflare? There is at least the possibility that the ISP isn't logging them and that they only run a DNS server because their customers expect one.
> It's hard to imagine any reason for Cloudflare to do it other than because they want to analyze DNS traffic, and then it's in a much more centralized location than to be distributed across every network and ISP.
Your ISP knows your real-world identity, whereas Cloudflare just knows your IP address. And I trust most ISPs, e.g., Comcast, less than I trust Cloudflare.
> So run DoT over port 443. The benefit of DoT is removing the implementation complexity of a pointless HTTP stack.
That would be perfectly fine and address all of these problems, but it isn't how things work today, and unless/until it does happen, I think DoH is way, way better than DoT over port 853.
> So change the system defaults to use DoT. That might even get you port 853 open, because breaking the defaults in popular devices would get the network admins off their butts to notice that a new protocol exists.
That'd only be true if the system defaults prevented fallback to insecure DNS, and so far, the few systems that support any form of secure DNS all will automatically do insecure fallback.
> Your ISP knows your real-world identity, whereas Cloudflare just knows your IP address.
Your ISP also just knows your IP address. They may have some information linking that IP address to a person, but so does Cloudflare, which does a MITM on half the internet and thereby knows not just your identity but the things inside the TLS connections you make.
> That'd only be true if the system defaults prevented fallback to insecure DNS, and so far, the few systems that support any form of secure DNS all will automatically do insecure fallback.
So change the system defaults instead of having the browsers disrespect the system settings that may well have been purposely set by the user.
> Your ISP also just knows your IP address. They may have some information linking that IP address to a person, but so does Cloudflare, which does a MITM on half the internet and thereby knows not just your identity but the things inside the TLS connections you make.
But then Cloudflare has your info even without DoH, so in that case, it's strictly more private to use DoH.
> So change the system defaults instead of having the browsers disrespect the system settings that may well have been purposely set by the user.
Just like you said about running DoT over port 443: this is a totally reasonable thing that would solve the problem, but it isn't how things work today, and unless/until it does happen, I think browsers defaulting to using secure settings when the system settings are insecure is the better option. (Especially since users who purposely don't want DoH can just manually configure their browser too in that case.)
> But then Cloudflare has your info even without DoH, so in that case, it's strictly more private to use DoH.
They have your info when the site you're accessing uses Cloudflare, which means they know more than enough to identify you.
Now you're telling them when you access a site that doesn't use Cloudflare.
> Just like you said about running DoT over port 443: this is a totally reasonable thing that would solve the problem, but it isn't how things work today, and unless/until it does happen, I think browsers defaulting to using secure settings when the system settings are insecure is the better option.
How do you get them to stop doing it once a better solution exists?
> Especially since users who purposely don't want DoH can just manually configure their browser too in that case.
This is the problem with doing it this way. Suppose I don't want DoH in my house, how do I get rid of it? Configure six different browsers on each of the dozens of devices in my family and hope I didn't miss any?
It needs something in the nature of "change this DHCP option on your internet gateway" is the issue, but that thing needs to be a universal standard that everything respects.
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