Comment by genocidicbunny
7 days ago
I can't fully agree because the way I see it, that is in a way scapegoating the company executives. Are they responsible? Probably, yes, they set the direction of the company and give the orders at the highest level. But we the engineers and designers are the ones actually implementing what is probably a fairly nebulous order at the highest levels into something concrete. They deign that there should be evil created, but we're the ones who are actually making it happen.
Some of the responsibility lies with us, and we need to not pretend that's not the case.
Do you also take personal responsibility for your company’s hiring practices, investment strategy, and marketing content? None of that would exist without you.
I think anyone would agree that there’s a level of flagrantly where individuals should feel culpability and make the right choices (“write software to prescribe poison to groups we don’t like”).
But something like this? Two apps establishing a comms channel? How many millions of times does this get done per year with no ill intent or effect? Is every engineer supposed to demand to know l of the use cases, and cross reference to other projects they’re not working on?
At some point it’s only fair to say that individuals should exercise their conscience when they have enough information, but it is not incumbent on every engineer to demand justification for every project. That’s where the decision makers who do have the time, resources, and chatter to know better should be taking at least legal responsibility.
As a software developer no I don't feel responsible for those things, because I don't have any involvement with them as part of my job. But the people who work in HR, finance, and marketing are responsible for those things.
I agree that the junior engineer implementing a localhost listener on Android might not understand what it is going to be used for and might not even think to ask. But somewhere, a senior engineer or PM or manager knows, and yes as you say that's the point where responsibility can be assigned, and increasingly up the line from there.
When I was involved in the hiring pipeline, I absolutely felt a level of personal responsibility since I was directly contributing to the decision to hire or not hire an applicant. That's not to say I was willing to shoulder the entirety of the responsibility, but knowing that my decision would affect not only the applicant, but their potential future coworkers too, I did feel responsible for making sure I had as much information as I could get and that I was making the best decisions I could.
I'd agree at a personal/moral level there is equal responsibility. However that doesn't recognise both the power and risk/reward imbalance here.
If you, as an employee did this - maybe you'd add a few dollars to your stock options over time. If your Zuck - that's potentially billions.
And in terms of downside - if you are Zuck and stop it in the company - there is no comeback - if you are an engineer blowing the whistle - you may find it hard to work in the industry ever again - and only one of those two actually needs to work.
Sounds like a typical blurring of responsibility through bureaucracy. "If Zak is a billionaire, then he is responsible, but since he essentially did nothing wrong, then no one will be held accountable." Total nonsense.
There are specific crimes, and there are specific people who planned this crimes, specific peoples who ordered them to be carried out, and who carried them out. And these people should be held accountable for these crimes. Even if they work 60 hours a week for minimum wage and would have been fired if they hadn't committed them. They should have quit in such cases, not committed crimes.
And on the other hand, if your employees, without your knowledge, somehow decided that the only way they could reach their targets was to commit a crime, why should you be held responsible for that? Even if you have 20 megayachts and your employees work 60 hours a week for minimum wage.
> if your employees, without your knowledge, somehow decided that the only way they could reach their targets was to commit a crime, why should you be held responsible for that?
Thats where "known or should have known" becomes relevant. It's your company, it's your responsiblity to know what they are doing.
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It's complex - that's why you have judges and juries - to make judgements.
I'm saying leaders bear more responsibility than foot soldiers - I'm not saying foot soldiers don't also have a responsibility - but 'I didn't physically do it' isn't a defence for those that gave the orders/ created a culture where it happened.
Sure, Zuck might not really known and that is a mitigation. But I think the interesting question here is what does everybody ( in the commpany ) think would have happened if he did find out? Would it have been a 'well done, that's clever/cool nod and a wink', or would they expected to have lost their jobs?
It's easy to frame laws to make it the leaders responsibility - it's their job to know - their job to act if they find out - their job to put systems and procedures in place to ensure illegal activity isn't happening on their watch.
And back to the billionaires/foot soldiers thing. Motive also matters - if people did it because of fear of losing their jobs that's a mitigating factor - if people materially benefited to the tune of millions - that's another factor. If you steal - the punishment scales with the value of the theft - same principal - if you want the law to be a deterrent then the punishment has to fit the crime. A fine of 1 million isn't going to stop Zuck doing it again is it?
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> I can't fully agree because the way I see it, that is in a way scapegoating the company executives.
Frankly, that's what the money's for.