Comment by ls-a
7 days ago
What's funny is that the engineers who implemented this are probably one of us here on HN. I don't think Zuck implemented this himself
7 days ago
What's funny is that the engineers who implemented this are probably one of us here on HN. I don't think Zuck implemented this himself
AND, whenever you suggest here that engineers should consider the morals or ethics of what they are being asked to work on, you often get lots of push back in the comments. "I just want to work on cool tech! It's my company's problem what they use it for!" and "Hey, I'm just a code monkey, don't blame me! If my manager tells me to build the Torment Nexus, I build the Torment Nexus!"
Some time later on HN front page:
> Why I left FB,GOOG,Whatever
>> Author describes seemingly abhorrently unethical and immoral practices they were completely ignorant of, occurring right in front of them that they were a key participant in.
>> Accepted a massive salary to be ignorant.
>> Shocked as all fuck about ethics and implications.
>> Returned 0 money, cashed out.
>> 100% ethical now.
A tale as old as time…
1 reply →
This is one of the main reasons I’m for licensing software engineers like civil engineers are. You know that without a license, you can’t work in the civilized world. So when your license requires you to not build the torment nexus, and some manager comes and says “build the torment nexus” then you tell them no, knowing that they can’t just fire you and hire someone else to do it. Yes, they might outsource it, but you can create regulations that say that companies that offer products in the civilized world anyways can’t offer the torment nexus as a product, and then you get a super compelling argument for preventing the torment nexus.
The plan isn’t without flaws, but nobody ever even wants to discuss, they just cut off the conversation early.
You don't want a licensing requirement in software engineering. That attempts to solve the problem in the wrong place entirely. The problem is that it's legal to build the Torment Nexus.
Licensing would raise your costs and restrict your choices, while having absolutely no effect on issues like what's being discussed here. You would just get a more expensive Torment Nexus that may or may not be slightly more secure.
Yes, they'll just outsource it. Plus, it could be argued that localhost tracking is not actually illegal in the jurisdiction where it was developed (debatable, I know.)
no https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer%27s_Ring for programmers
Absolutely. I’ve done so many bad things with my career. Less over time, but in the beginning I was naive and eager to please. I can’t criticize anyone without admitting I did the exact same thing. We want to stay relevant, get promoted, be the hero who keeps big projects moving, etc. Certain people in leadership see this and use us to execute on things less enthusiastic or more aware/morally grounded types won’t.
This is why I earn half as much working in science now. We will never reach unicorn status but we also won’t treat our end users and partners like pawns to exploit on our path to wealth and power. I can live with that.
That's what they need AI for. It won't say no.
The engineers did not say no either though.
My experience is that most won’t. I was someone who wouldn’t say no, once. For me it was because I was naive and didn’t believe people would work so hard to exploit others.
In fact, one time there were users on an ad network I built who were breaking rules. I’d track them and try to figure out where they came from and who they actually are, only for them to drop out and open a new account. I’d report to my CEO about this, ask for advice, generally discuss strategies to prevent this kind of usage of the network. He seemed very concerned. But sure enough, eventually I figured out it was actually him all along. He was making tens of thousands of dollars in revenue per month doing literally the most shady stuff on the network. He was using my naivety to keep himself in the loop on internal compliance and stay a step ahead of me.
I’ve worked with several people like this. They love the tech industry. I had to finally admit to myself that I worked with bad people and did bad things to develop the awareness and courage to start saying no and do something else.
Once I was gone, he did the same thing with a younger developer who was eager to break into the industry. I actually work with him now, nearly 15 years later.
They're hoping that in the long run AI won't say no and will be cheaper