Comment by DrScientist
7 days ago
It's complex - that's why you have judges and juries - to make judgements.
I'm saying leaders bear more responsibility than foot soldiers - I'm not saying foot soldiers don't also have a responsibility - but 'I didn't physically do it' isn't a defence for those that gave the orders/ created a culture where it happened.
Sure, Zuck might not really known and that is a mitigation. But I think the interesting question here is what does everybody ( in the commpany ) think would have happened if he did find out? Would it have been a 'well done, that's clever/cool nod and a wink', or would they expected to have lost their jobs?
It's easy to frame laws to make it the leaders responsibility - it's their job to know - their job to act if they find out - their job to put systems and procedures in place to ensure illegal activity isn't happening on their watch.
And back to the billionaires/foot soldiers thing. Motive also matters - if people did it because of fear of losing their jobs that's a mitigating factor - if people materially benefited to the tune of millions - that's another factor. If you steal - the punishment scales with the value of the theft - same principal - if you want the law to be a deterrent then the punishment has to fit the crime. A fine of 1 million isn't going to stop Zuck doing it again is it?
>those that gave the orders
That's part of the crime. Of course, the one who gave the order must bear responsibility. It's just that if the subordinate also bears full responsibility, there is a high probability that there will be no order to commit a crime, because everyone will expect that there will be no criminal ready to commit the crime.
>what does everybody ( in the commpany ) think would have happened if he did find out?
Why is this important? A crime has been committed. The people who committed it must be held accountable. The lack of responsibility of the direct criminals allows for the existence of a system where the commission of crimes is not punished, employees cover up each other's crimes, and those who refuse to commit them are fired. Not the other way around.
>It's easy to frame laws to make it the leaders responsibility
Where are the examples?
>it's their job to know
Yes, and this is exactly the substitution that occurs: instead of responsibility for a real crime, there is responsibility for a poorly performed job. A great system for a leader to use to get his subordinates to commit crimes for his own benefit.
>if people did it because of fear of losing their jobs
Then they should bear more serious responsibility than those who committed the same crime for personal profit.
Because this is already organized crime, more dangerous for society and more protected from law enforcement agencies. Therefore, the direct perpetrator of the crime, the one who gave the order to commit the crime and those who tried to cover up the criminals - should be considered an organized criminal group, with all the consequences.
And Zuc, if he did not order the crimes to be committed - it would be great for him to get a brand new mega-yacht. So that the next time he starts winking strangely or giving out KPIs that are easiest to achieve by committing crimes - people would think with their own heads, and not start engaging in organized criminal activities.
> Why is this important?
Because leadership is important and is why things like this keep happening in companies like Meta and are not a regular occurrence in companies say like Apple ( despite the laws for the rank and file being the same.... )
> Where are the examples?
Health and safety legislation. Sarbanes Oxley ( after Eron and the bosses getting off ).
I don't understand why you are so keen to give Meta leadership a free pass.