Comment by farts_mckensy
5 days ago
On the other hand, some studies show that mildly depressed people have a more accurate model of the world. So what if you were right about your job initially, and the CBT is basically just gaslighting you into spinning things in a positive way?
Assuming that is true, does a more negative way of viewing things actually benefit you (even if it would be slightly more "accurate")?
If one has a choice (that means if there is no case of clinical depression):
At least anecdotally a bit of optimism improves my life quality a lot and results in a higher productivity, proactive solution finding and a more pleasant work environment. Constantly looking at the negative side of things (with a healthy serving of snark) contributes, in my opinion, to burnout and fatigue.
It's not difficult to imagine a number of scenarios where that perspective could bite you in the ass.
If you have a false impression of a person's character because you've jedi mindtricked yourself into not thinking the worst of people, you might end up trusting an untrustworthy person.
If you are in a toxic work environment, and you convince yourself it's not so bad, you might end up staying in a situation that is actively harming you.
We are speaking in the abstract and I can't comment on anyone else's experience. But I personally find toxic positivity and the endless drive to be more productive much more dangerous than being too negative.
The counterpoint is that seeing things “as they are” (which is the mind of a depressed person — ask me how I know) can lead you to not give people the benefit of the doubt, it can lead you to be miserly, unmerciful, pessimistic, cowardly. There is always a reason to be distrustful. But the only way good things can happen in your life is to be generous with your spirit and you should seek to do so as a matter of course, even if the rational part of your mind has inhibitions.
This isn’t to say, be foolish. But on the other hand, the mindset that leads to this kind of deprivation can be more difficult to cure, since it always appears from a place of rationality.
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> If you are in a toxic work environment, and you convince yourself it's not so bad, you might end up staying in a situation that is actively harming you.
I hate a toxic work environment too, but let’s be real, everything is fake at software companies, so there is no “harm” happening if you stay. So what if leadership is terrible, if you can play their little games, take their money, and not tailspin into a depression… congrats?
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I agree. While depression and negativity leads you to see things practically rather than in an optimistic and hopeful way, the quality of life and satisfaction in a little optimistic world is much better. I am yet to read Daniel Kahneman but he talks about optimism a lot.
My preferred modality: "Pessimism of the intellect, optimism of the will."
I recommend Martin Seligman. I've read some of Kahneman's academic work. Martin Seligman changed my life with Learned Optimism.
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The trick is to be positive about yourself and the people you can trust, but slightly negative about the world at large.
Unfortunately the one of the tricks of severe depression is to make you feel like that circle of people you can trust is ever-shrinking.
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That's the kind of optimistic attitude I'd expect from Emperor Vespasian, builder of the Colosseum. You're role-playing your persona really well!
Personally, I employ/enjoy a highly skeptical form of optimism.
I think things could be great, but there are many obstacles along the way to be aware of.
It isn't true, it is obvious bullshit.
It is like making the argument that the most accurate view of life is doing nothing because we are all going to die anyway.
> some studies show that mildly depressed people have a more accurate model of the world
This is called the “depressive realism” hypothesis and there’s more evidence against it than for it.
The studies don’t show “more accurate model of the world” like the depressive realism pushers claim. They show isolated things like depressed patients performing slightly better in some arbitrary gamified task. There are studies that have the results going the other way, too.
It’s well understood that depressive episodes cause cognitive distortions that lead to overestimating the effort required for tasks, underestimating how easily things can be changed for the better, or ruminating on things that don’t matter.
The studies don't show they have a more accurate model of the world. The studies overwhelming only test the immediate judgements of their own behaviour and performance.
The more limited studies with different methodologies have found their judgement of other people's behaviour and performance is wrong. And that if you ask them after a delay (e.g. forcing them to use recall) instead of immediately, they are also wrong.
What does it mean for someone’s model of the world to be accurate? My experience with mild depression is that you notice many negative things which are true but then lack perspective about how much they matter. When you feel better you just don’t pay any mind to these negative things.
I’d argue that you can still have an accurate model of the world without the depression part.
I can’t back it up but recovering from depression by simply putting “rose colored glasses” is a recipe for bouncing back later. Happened to me.
In HN’s case: admitting that companies are quite toxic and more often than not working against you, that most people around you is probably an incompetent if put under a microscope and that the things you’re working on aren’t exactly changing the world for the better.
The trick perhaps is not letting those things make you cynical, and not acting on them. And forgetting yourself because you’re also a bit incompetent too, so you can let you and everyone else off the hook.
> admitting that companies are quite toxic and more often than not working against you, that most people around you is probably an incompetent if put under a microscope and that the things you’re working on aren’t exactly changing the world for the better
It would be so much easier to deal with if I wasn't surrounded by people, especially management, that act like we're on a mission from $DEITY. Seriously, I can get over on working on whatever inane unimportant thing. It's the entire circus acting like we're not that drives me nuts.
Maybe I'm wrong, but I can't imagine plumbers get talks along the lines of "We're top-notch leaders in our industry for fitting pipes! True innovators. Pushing the envelope. We are world-renowned for our culture and are continually pushing the limits of what's possible. Every day we inspire people to live their best lives and be their true selves. " Add on to that, plumbers are actually important! And they know it.
Related: did you do anything specific to help with your depression? I've been getting into TMS / ketamine / whatever else territory for mine.
Yeah, the scalability of software definitely puts us our industry in a weird spot. Everyone must act as if they're Apple or Google and project confidence.
Plumbers are more impactful than tech, but since the impact is collective and local, there's no crazy talking.
About depression: Classic medication was enough to stop the panic attacks and the crippling negative thoughts, but it wasn't permanent. I would have tried ketamine if it were available to me. Behavioral Therapy helped me avoid bouncing back when lowering the medication. It helped me recognize when I was stuck in a mental loop. Later on we both realized that relationships, jobs and founding startups wasn't giving me structure and purpose in life, and lack of purpose was making me bad again over time. To fix this, some people have religion, others self improvement, others make companies, some get kids... I got a cat. It might not be a "sexy" purpose but it works. Now I can have imperfect relationships, bad days at my job, or pursue the other things that tickle my brain without feeling empty inside. The depression is still looming there but now I know how to deal with it before it takes over.
I would like to add to this. I have been depressed since I was a teenager. Anxiety Panic attacks, poor sleep, s*ci*l tendencies. I was able to finally get a job at 29 and first 3 months into it, I realized this is not a right fit and the company and its management is chaotic at best. It was a red flag right from the start but I ignored it because I was desperate for a WFH job. After 3 years of therapy, my views had changed that it's not so bad (something that I think the optimistic view changed). I was also looking to move to North America so I kept stalling to find a new job but that was a different thing. After I slipped back into depression a while ago, I again started seriously considering quitting because now in 3 years the company has grown somehow and some of the employees are really toxic. In 3-5 months I seriously want to quit this time whether I switch or no as I will complete 4 years at a company I never planned on working beyond 6 months. So there might be some truth to this. When I am depressed I see all the realistic things going on. When I am doing well I tend to ignore lot of the red flags.
That may be a subset of people, you also don’t need to be depressed to have an accurate view of the world
There exists another subset of people that merely tolerate the overly optimistic general populace and don’t need that as a coping mechanism to understand and mold the world
CBT can definitely veer into gaslightning territory. But then, if it helps you cope, so what?
It is the same with religion. Even though gods objectively do not exist, at least not in a literal sense, it can still help people to cope better with their life and be an overall positive force. Or extremely harmful when abused.
The world is pretty depressing. Everyone is telling themselves little lies one way or another just to be able to function. And no, Atheists are not more rational than religious people per se, they tend to have other delusions.
Personally I think striving to have a realistic model of the world is still the best long term strategy and that those little lies are like drugs that will help you in the short term but wreck havoc in the long term but who knows. It is complicated.
>CBT can definitely veer into gaslightning territory. But then, if it helps you cope, so what?
That's myopic. There's only so much "reframing" you can do before the tension begins to rear its head. Serenity now, insanity later.
Yeah, that is why I wrote:
> Personally I think striving to have a realistic model of the world is still the best long term strategy and that those little lies are like drugs that will help you in the short term but wreck havoc in the long term but who knows. It is complicated.
Though to be fair much of CBT can also be getting rid of false believes that hold you back.
Ultimately CBT has a lot of empirical research backing it up that shows that it is very effective for certain conditions. Though people should also be more aware that it works less well or can be harmful for certain people. It is not a silver bullet but nothing to sneer at.
Ultimately we all cope one way or another. If you believe that you have no delusions, you are more delusional than most of us.
What is even an "accurate model of the world" in this context? Isn't it all just perception and impression and interpretation?
For example, a depressed person might think: "this company is shit and will go under in 6 months because my coworkers and management are so incompetent and malicious"
Let's say their prediction was true. Good job!
What if the depressed person missed that there were a couple of people at the office who actually were not incompetent and malicious, maybe people they would enjoy to get to know. What if there were opportunities to learn interesting things while the company crashed and burned.
To determine what worldview is most realistic you have to weigh what aspects of reality are most significant.
Mildly is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. What does mildly depressed mean?
The idea that there are varying degrees of depression is not a difficult concept to grasp.
It is a well established clinical term. It's not doing any heavy lifting.
Functioning, presumably.