Comment by kennywinker
2 days ago
Headlines are written by the publisher not the author. They’re written to maximize readership. The fact that spying happened in italy by italians is mostly only interesting to italians. The fact that the US backs an israeli company that sells spying tools is interesting to many more people. You can see the selling clicks, but because they’re not twisting the truth or saying something misleading - in this case I mostly see getting info to the people who care about it.
However, the fact that companies sell offensive cyber warfare software to governments is not new, and that specific company isn't either.
There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia. And fighting terror or crime using software is valid. The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists, and what I'd like to know from this article was what was their motivation
It is absolutely wrong to sell that software. It is mostly used to harass journalists and people advocating against dictatorial regimes. That is why there are endless headlines and articles about it being used against orgs like greenpeace, or people criticizing a govt. The claim was always we want to be able to use it against terrorists or real criminals - but at the least we know it is very frequently used to try to stop critics of governments.
It is immoral. I'd never hire someone who worked on such software or for one of those firms. We should have a movement that declares this.
An incredible self awareness for you to write “There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia”.
I wonder how Iran or Zambia feel about the west? The overthrow of their democracy. The colonial exploitations. Are those legit grievances in your eyes? Or are you a “take up the white mans burden” kind of person?
If you're claiming that Iran's government is somehow morally equivalent to Italy's, you're massively wrong.
It's not about "the white mans burden", whatever that means. It's about Iran's government not being democratically elected, being massively unpopular with its own populace that can't do anything about it cause it's not a democracy, enforcing religious laws on people that often don't want them, not respecting minorities. And oh, btw, investing billions of dollars in promoting terror all across the Middle East, with the stated goal of eradicating Israel (and, eventually, the US).
So, I don't really care how Iran's rulers feel about the US - they're evil. If you can't recognize that, you've lost the plot.
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I don't think you have to believe Western countries are morally blameless to think that Iran's use of spyware would probably have materially worse effects for whoever they spy on. It's clear to me at least that the West can both be blamed for the effects of colonialism and that the victims of colonialism can do plenty of bad things on their own.
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I don't know how Iran feels about the west, but I for one am not keen about them hanging homosexuals on cranes, cutting hands of thieves, raping protestors in prison or taking random european tourist number 300 hostage in order to make finland cave-in on something.
You might think the above is morally equivalent with whatever the state of Italy is doing, but I believe some governments and some cultures are better than others. Not because they are superior humans, but because human organizations and actions can be compared one to another, and there is at least for me, places I'd rather live in, and places I wouldn't
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If it was for no good reason, would that update your “nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government?” I do think western governments are generally better, but spying on journalists is bad.
not yet, although I am curious why this specific technology is linked to so many scandals involving journalists. Is it simply because that journalists are interested in stories about journalists and that what makes the news, or a power corrupts scenario.
I believe that similarly to phone tapping, this is a technology that in the wrong hands is dangerous, but it can be very effective against some threats that might make this worthwhile
Western democracies have worked for a century after the invention of phone tapping, and even a few decades after inventing a much more dangerous technology, of massive government or corporate surveillance networks.
Zero click exploit makes the news but it has no implication on most of the population, it's too expensive.
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>There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia
It's not like Iran or Zambia precisely to the degree it doesn't use such tools.
The spy companies sells to non western companies also like UAE and Saudi Arabia, with the approval of Israeli government.
And Israeli company selling software to spy on journalist tells you everything you need to know about the whole “western” concept. It’s a mirage of morality.
but friendly countries hacking friendies is also not new. so in your view then it should not be written at all?
remember belgacom?
western governments are also in the war of information and minds. if they wouldnt wage it, we'd already have lost.
sadly, this results in this kind of weirdness. and its incredibly hard or impossible to find their true motives or intent. especially if for example an investigation didnt turn up what they needed, an so seems like a random hack on a random person.
it doesnt happen only to journalists. but when they are targeted its easier discovered because they might expect it more and look for it more. and when it does, because its related to press, everyones 'freedom of press' button is tripped and they get offended, sad, angry, whatever the button releases.
> western governments are also in the war of information and minds. if they wouldnt wage it, we'd already have lost.
Tangential, but this I strongly disagree with. The reason the US, and West more broadly, has been gradually, and now rapidly, losing this 'war' since the end of WW2 is precisely because we started waging it. And more generally the reason we started waging it is because we started behaving in an increasingly amoral fashion.
Consider that US had absolutely no intelligence agency whatsoever until 1942. And the CIA did not exist before 1947. Then within 15 years they're proposing engaging in terrorist acts against Americans on American soil so we can blame it on another country and get involved in a war. [1] And that proposal was only stopped by a President who would then shortly thereafter be assassinated by a "deluded gunman." [2] For context on that snippet if you're unaware, Bush Sr was the former head of the CIA.
From there it's shockingly just been a rapidly downhill slide. When you pretend to hold the moral high ground while acting fundamentally immoral, it leaves people far more jaded, and noncompliant, when they eventually 'wake up' to what's happening than if you just dropped the pretext and leveled with people.
[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Northwoods
[2] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jOkTtpzoulc
Their motivation is they are fascists. Like not in an “anything I don’t like is fascism” kinda way - literal fascists.
If you’d like to know more about them, an article in the AP isn’t the right place to find more. But it is a good way to let people know what the US is funding in the world.
What's your definition of fascist and what is your argument that Meloni's party is fascist?
I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you -- genuinely curious about your perspective.
The most damning bit in her Wikipedia article is this: "In 1992 Meloni joined the Youth Front, the youth wing of the Italian Social Movement (MSI), a neo-fascist political party founded in 1946 by followers of Italian fascism. She later became the national leader of Student Action, the student movement of the National Alliance (AN), a post-fascist party that became the MSI's legal successor in 1995 and moved towards national conservatism."
But that does not necessarily mean she is herself a fascist, but rather that she was a member of various organizations that were originally founded by fascists then later moderated (roughly similar to the French FN/RN).
On the other hand, lots of people you could fairly describe as fascist or far-right claim to not be so, so it's possible she genuinely is and the moderate turn of these parties is a sham. As someone who doesn't follow Italian politics I have no way of knowing which is the case.
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Your comment is about the US but their question about "motivation" was concerning Italy. As in, why is Italy spying on a journalist in a different EU country?
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That's a long shot from understanding "what the US is funding", because one company backed by a US VC sold the Italians something they misused.
Concerning why this happened, you seem to know exactly why this happened. I for one am happy to be informed whether this is corruption, fascist crackdown, some unknown italian law that makes it all okay, actually the work of the previous government or maybe these journalists were actually baby kidnappers, whatever. That's pretty much why we need to read an article
> However, the fact that companies sell offensive cyber warfare software to governments is not new
Good thing the story is not about the companies or governments, but the journalists.
The "this is not new" / "everyone knew about this" middlebrow dismissal adds nothing to any conversation, and falsely equates all hacking incidents, but the real story is about the clients, their motivations and the victims who are always different.
> I'd like to know from this article was what was their motivation
Wouldn't we all? Meloni's office had no comment, but the article gave enough breadcrumbs about the reporting of the victims that one can make an educated guess.
are you... serious?
no I'm genuinely curious - because no matter who you sell it to it will be used against its own populace - look at bloody PRISM(mass data collection of internet traffic in US by NSA in case you weren't aware), Echelon(older project targeted at radio transmissions), 5eyes(US, UK, AUS, NZ, CN asking each other to spy on their own citizens as a loophole) .. or any other scandal in EU when it leaked that such spyware was used against journalists investigating government corruption. Or in Mexico, or anywhere else.
How you are surprised that "western government" might attack journalists when there has been proof of them doing that for years?!
> There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government
i emphatically beg to differ with this statement
Spies have saved so many lives throughout history and they prevented nuclear Armageddon during the Cold War on many occasions. Therefore the more spies the better.
Better spies than more covid research at wuhan.
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>"There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government"
The king can do no wrong. What a pinnacle of arrogance.
>"The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists"
Welcome to a real world
> fighting terror using software is valid
Only if you want to live in an Israeli-type society where a certain group is inherently suspicious and have no rights. Americans should be repulsed by that.
That's why I don't buy the judeo-christian propaganda about how our values are the same. The western values are justice and due process and "all men are created equal", zionist values are "we are god's chosen", no holds barred "war on terror" with no due process, invoking religous amalek to commit genocide. These are the values of an ancient desert tribe not western civilization. Zionist values have been forced onto the west over the last 30 years as Israel tries to rope us into more middle eastern wars, but they don't derive from western enlightenment philosophy.
> where a certain group is inherently suspicious and have no rights
what group? If you mean arabs, israeli arabs enjoy full citizenship rights.
> zionist values are "we are god's chosen", no holds barred "war on terror" with no due process, invoking religous amalek to commit genocide.
That's some very specific claims. I challenge you to show any evidence for this.
>Zionist values have been forced onto the west over the last 30 years as Israel tries to rope us into more middle eastern wars, but they don't derive from western enlightenment philosophy.
??? What?
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> There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia.
Yes, because Western ones are the good governments (looking at Meloni).
> And fighting terror or crime using software is valid. The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists, and what I'd like to know from this article was what was their motivation
Huh, it’s surprising that Western governments would spy on journalists. But they are the good guys? What was their motivation.
Fighting crime, for example by spying on a WaPo columnist and then strangling him at a consular mission in Turkey and chopping up his body, to then dissolve it in acid.
That's what this company's software is used for.
Good luck to them shifting focus to the bad actors they choose to do business with.
That is not the same company, and as I said above, you expect something else from Italy compared to the Saudis
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That was going to happen without any software based on the history of these theocracies.
> The only thing that surprises me is that a western government might attack journalists
You might want to look up Karen Silkwood, who was likely murdered by either her employer or US government agents, while driving to meet with a reporter and her boyfriend.
If you think the US government hasn't murdered any journalists in the last 70 years or so, I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.
Actually, there is a lot wrong with selling intelligence tools to western governments. They are doing some of the most evil shit in the world and are complicit in genocide at the moment.
No one should be buying Israeli consumer goods, let alone weapons or security tools as part of Boycotts, Divestment, and Sanctions.
Everyone is complicit in a globalized world. China kills Ukrainians daily with their tech.
> They’re written to maximize readership.
And to shape narrative!
TFA says that this story is relevant for USA because there exists an executive order which "prohibits federal government departments and agencies from acquiring commercial spyware that has been misused by foreign governments" and at this moment there are contracts between Paragon and DHS and other US government institutions.
So, in theory, these contracts with Paragon should be canceled, unless Trump decides to repeal that executive order, because it is a remnant of the previous administration.
It's the AP. It's writing is not to 'maximize readership'. It is pushing an agenda to a select audience.
Nobody who knows what the AP is would describe them that way. It's a non-profit news wire, they write up the national/international stories so that smaller newsrooms don't have to redo this work. The person who listens to newsradio, and the person who gets their local news from the Internet (Facebook/Twitter/Reddit posts of articles or whatever) have very little in common with how they stay informed but unless your radio station is sending war reporters to the Middle East are people are part of the AP audience.
It's like producing weapons versus using them. Just instead of "weapons" we have "spyware tools".