Absolute wild take. Do you think every police department in the US oppresses minorities and infringes on civil rights or something?
>just as it was immoral to become a european camp guard in the forties
Even for the Allies? Given the prior sentence, I can't tell whether you're trying to allude to Nazi concentration camp guards, or actually think all camp guards are immoral.
> Do you think every police department in the US oppresses minorities and infringes on civil rights or something?
There are some people who not only believe this but can make very compelling cases that this is the case. It's a dead-end rhetorical argument; yes, it is actually possible for literally every precinct in the US to violate people's civil rights.
The difference is that some people, like (I suspect) the person you're responding to, seem to think that the position itself--armed law enforcement officer--is archetypically immoral and should not exist as a function or profession in a civilization. This is naive to to the point of absurdity and underwrites most of the idiocy that's widely abound in anti-policing movements. In one breath they claim that "police" are as a class immoral, and in the next they proclaim that their political opponents must be "brought to justice" by armed people following a set of written laws. It's absurd!
That strawman isn't particularly pretty, maybe you could put some effort in next time you make one?
To me civilisation isn't an inherently good term, and I'm not a believer in natural or god given hierarchies, or even the state as necessary. On the contrary, I consider the state to be a crime in itself, founded on the threat of violence and by necessity it destroys cooperative forms of social life as a survival tactic.
"Absolute wild take. Do you think every police department in the US oppresses minorities and infringes on civil rights or something?"
Yes. There is some variation but cops as an institution generally grew out of previous phenomena like state employed executioners and anti-union militias, and its purpose is to protect capital owners from the threat of popular mobilisation against injustice and inequality.
Functions like sometimes acting against entrism in the state or integration with insurance industry are kind of bolted on.
"Even for the Allies? Given the prior sentence, I can't tell whether you're trying to allude to Nazi concentration camp guards, or actually think all camp guards are immoral."
Yeah, sure, forced labour camps aren't a nice thing and you aren't a nice person if you participate in enabling them, even if they're populated with germans or gays or whatever.
>Yes. There is some variation but cops as an institution generally grew out of previous phenomena like state employed executioners and anti-union militias,
It really isn't, unless you're willing to ignore all the origins of policing prior to the founding of the US.
Moreover the idea that some institution "grew out of" something shameful, and therefore it's irredeemable to this day is absurd. The Nazis created the autobahn, and even though it's pretty benign today, at least part of the motivation for creating it was for military conquest. Does that mean it's immoral to be an autobahn maintenance worker, or that the institution is irredeemably evil today?
> and its purpose is to protect capital owners from the threat of popular mobilisation against injustice and inequality.
It seems to be doing a pretty poor job at that, given how stores and even trains can be looted with impunity. Moreover how do you objectively define what a "purpose" of an institution is? Some right-wingers might say the "purpose" of the education system is to indoctrinate kids with liberal ideology or whatever. What makes that your claim about cops more valid than right winger's claim about the education system?
>Yeah, sure, forced labour camps aren't a nice thing and you aren't a nice person if you participate in enabling them, even if they're populated with germans or gays or whatever.
No, you said "camps". Now you're trying to pull a motte and bailey and retreating to "forced labour camps". I don't see the problem with POW camps that abides by international law, for instance. Being confined to a POW camp isn't anyone's idea of a good time, but war is hell, and there's far worse things that can happen.
>And yes, it's immoral to become a cop
Absolute wild take. Do you think every police department in the US oppresses minorities and infringes on civil rights or something?
>just as it was immoral to become a european camp guard in the forties
Even for the Allies? Given the prior sentence, I can't tell whether you're trying to allude to Nazi concentration camp guards, or actually think all camp guards are immoral.
> Do you think every police department in the US oppresses minorities and infringes on civil rights or something?
There are some people who not only believe this but can make very compelling cases that this is the case. It's a dead-end rhetorical argument; yes, it is actually possible for literally every precinct in the US to violate people's civil rights.
The difference is that some people, like (I suspect) the person you're responding to, seem to think that the position itself--armed law enforcement officer--is archetypically immoral and should not exist as a function or profession in a civilization. This is naive to to the point of absurdity and underwrites most of the idiocy that's widely abound in anti-policing movements. In one breath they claim that "police" are as a class immoral, and in the next they proclaim that their political opponents must be "brought to justice" by armed people following a set of written laws. It's absurd!
That strawman isn't particularly pretty, maybe you could put some effort in next time you make one?
To me civilisation isn't an inherently good term, and I'm not a believer in natural or god given hierarchies, or even the state as necessary. On the contrary, I consider the state to be a crime in itself, founded on the threat of violence and by necessity it destroys cooperative forms of social life as a survival tactic.
2 replies →
"Absolute wild take. Do you think every police department in the US oppresses minorities and infringes on civil rights or something?"
Yes. There is some variation but cops as an institution generally grew out of previous phenomena like state employed executioners and anti-union militias, and its purpose is to protect capital owners from the threat of popular mobilisation against injustice and inequality.
Functions like sometimes acting against entrism in the state or integration with insurance industry are kind of bolted on.
"Even for the Allies? Given the prior sentence, I can't tell whether you're trying to allude to Nazi concentration camp guards, or actually think all camp guards are immoral."
Yeah, sure, forced labour camps aren't a nice thing and you aren't a nice person if you participate in enabling them, even if they're populated with germans or gays or whatever.
>Yes. There is some variation but cops as an institution generally grew out of previous phenomena like state employed executioners and anti-union militias,
It really isn't, unless you're willing to ignore all the origins of policing prior to the founding of the US.
https://www.nas.org/academic-questions/36/3/did-american-pol...
Moreover the idea that some institution "grew out of" something shameful, and therefore it's irredeemable to this day is absurd. The Nazis created the autobahn, and even though it's pretty benign today, at least part of the motivation for creating it was for military conquest. Does that mean it's immoral to be an autobahn maintenance worker, or that the institution is irredeemably evil today?
> and its purpose is to protect capital owners from the threat of popular mobilisation against injustice and inequality.
It seems to be doing a pretty poor job at that, given how stores and even trains can be looted with impunity. Moreover how do you objectively define what a "purpose" of an institution is? Some right-wingers might say the "purpose" of the education system is to indoctrinate kids with liberal ideology or whatever. What makes that your claim about cops more valid than right winger's claim about the education system?
>Yeah, sure, forced labour camps aren't a nice thing and you aren't a nice person if you participate in enabling them, even if they're populated with germans or gays or whatever.
No, you said "camps". Now you're trying to pull a motte and bailey and retreating to "forced labour camps". I don't see the problem with POW camps that abides by international law, for instance. Being confined to a POW camp isn't anyone's idea of a good time, but war is hell, and there's far worse things that can happen.