Comment by AndyKelley
21 hours ago
My homepage takes 73ms to rebuild: 17ms to recompile the static site generator, then 56ms to run it.
andy@bark ~/d/andrewkelley.me (master)> zig build --watch -fincremental
Build Summary: 3/3 steps succeeded
install success
└─ run exe compile success 57ms MaxRSS:3M
└─ compile exe compile Debug native success 331ms
Build Summary: 3/3 steps succeeded
install success
└─ run exe compile success 56ms MaxRSS:3M
└─ compile exe compile Debug native success 17ms
watching 75 directories, 1 processes
Just like every submission about C/C++ gets a comment about how great Rust is, every submission about Rust gets a comment about how great Zig is. Like a clockwork.
Edit: apparently I am replying to the main Zig author? Language evangelism is by far the worst part of Rust and has likely stirred up more anti Rust sentiment than “converting” people to Rust. If you truly care for your language you should use whatever leverage you have to steer your community away from evangelism, not embrace it.
It's unlikely that anyone was going to use Rust anyway but decided not to because they got too annoyed hearing about it.
If you can't be proud about a programming language you made what is even the point?
Neat, I guess?
This comment would be a lot better if it engaged with the posted article, or really had any sort of insight beyond a single compile time metric. What do you want me to take away from your comment? Zig good and Rust bad?
I think the most relevant thing is that building a simple website can (and should) take milliseconds, not minutes, and that -- quoting from the post:
> A brief note: 50 seconds is fine, actually!
50 seconds should actually not be considered fine.
As you've just demonstrated, that point can be made without even mentioning Zig, let alone copy/pasting some compile time stuff with no other comment or context. Which is why I thought (well, hoped) there might be something more to it than just a dunk attempt.
Now we get all of this off-topic discussion about Zig. Which I guess is good for you Zig folk... But it's pretty off-putting for me.
whoisyc's comment is extremely on point. As the VP of community, I would really encourage thinking about what they said.
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@AndyKelley I'm super curious what you think the main factors are that make languages like Zig super fast at compiling where languages like Rust and Swift are quite slow. What's the key difference?
I'm not Andrew, but Rust has made several language design decisions that make compiler performance difficult. Some aspects of compiler speed come down to that.
One major difference is the way each project considers compiler performance:
The Rust team has always cared to some degree about this. But, from my recollection of many RFCs, "how does this impact compiler performance" wasn't a first-class concern. And that also doesn't really speak to a lot of the features that were basically implemented before the RFC system existed. So while it's important, it's secondary to other things. And so while a bunch of hard-working people have put in a ton of work to improve performance, they also run up against these more fundamental limitations at the limit.
Andrew has pretty clearly made compiler performance a first-class concern, and that's affected language design decisions. Naturally this leads to a very performant compiler.
> Rust has made several language design decisions that make compiler performance difficult
Do you have a list off the top of your head/do you know of a decent list? I've now read many "compiler slow" thoughtpieces by many people and I have yet to see someone point at a specific feature and say "this is just intrinsically harder".
I believe that it likely exists, but would be good to know what feature to get mad at! Half joking of course
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Basically, not depending on LLVM or LLD. The above is only possible because we invested years into making our own x86_64 backend and our own linker. You can see all the people ridiculing this decision 2 years ago https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36529456
LLVM isnt a good scapegoat. A C application equivalent in size to a rust or c++ application will compile an order of magnitude quicker and they all use LLVM. I'm not a compiler expert, but it doesn't seem right to me that the only possible path to quick compilation for Zig was a custom backend.
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The Rust folks have cranelift and wild BTW. There are alternatives to LLVM and LLD, even though they might not be as obvious to most users.
what is even the point of quoting reactions from two years ago?
this is a terrible look for your whole community
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I'm also curious because I've (recently) compiled more or less identical programs in Zig and Rust and they took the same amount of time to compile. I'm guessing people are just making Zig programs with less code and fewer dependencies and not really comparing apples to apples.
Zig is starting to migrate to custom backends for debug builds (instead of using LLVM) plus incremental compilation.
All Zig code is built in a single compilation unit and everything is compiled from scratch every time you change something, including all dependencies and all the parts of the stdlib that you use in your project.
So you've been comparing Zig rebuilds that do all the work every time with Rust rebuilds that cache all dependencies.
Once incremental is fully released you will see instant rebuilds.
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One difference that Zig has is that it doesn't have multiline comments or multiline strings, meaning that the parser can parse any line correctly without context. I assume this makes parallelization trivial.
There is ino operator overloading like C, so A + B can only mean one thing.
You can't redeclare a variable, so foo can only map to one thing.
The list goes on.
Basically it was designed to compile faster, and that means many issues on Github have been getting rejected in order to keep it that way. It's full of compromises.
My non-static Rust website (includes an actual webserver as well as a react-like framework for templating) takes 1.25s to do an incremental recompile with "cargo watch" (which is an external watcher that just kills the process and reruns "cargo run").
And it can be considerably faster if you use something like subsecond[0] (which does incremental linking and hotpatches the running binary). It's not quite as fast as Zig, but it's close.
However, if that 331ms build above is a clean (uncached) build then that's a lot faster than a clean build of my website which takes ~12s.
[0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44369642
The 331ms time is mostly uncached. In this case the build script was already cached (must be re-done if the build script is edited), and compiler_rt was already cached (must be done exactly once per target; almost never rebuilt).
Impressive!
Nice. Didn't realize zig build has --watch and -fincremental added. I was mostly using "watchexec -e zig zig build" for recompile on file changes.
New to 0.14.0!
Zig isn’t memory safe though right?
It isn't a lot of things, but I would argue that its exceptionally (heh) good exception handling model / philosophy (making it good, required, and performant) is more important than memory safety, especially when a lot of performance-oriented / bit-banging Rust code just gets shoved into Unsafe blocks anyway. Even C/C++ can be made memory safe, cf. https://github.com/pizlonator/llvm-project-deluge
What I'm more interested to know is what the runtime performance tradeoff is like now; one really has to assume that it's slower than LLVM-generated code, otherwise that monumental achievement seems to have somehow been eclipsed in very short time, with much shorter compile times to boot.
> especially when a lot of performance-oriented / bit-banging Rust code just gets shoved into Unsafe blocks anyway. Even C/C++ can be made memory safe, cf.
Your first claim is unverifiable and the second one is just so, so wrong. Even big projects with very talented, well-paid C or C++ devs eventually end up with CVEs, ~80% of them memory-related. Humans are just not capable of 0% error rate in their code.
If Zig somehow got more popular than C/C++, we would still be stuck in the same CVE bog because of memory unsafety. No thank you.
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> Even C/C++ can be made memory safe, cf. https://github.com/pizlonator/llvm-project-deluge
> Fil-C achieves this using a combination of concurrent garbage collection and invisible capabilities (each pointer in memory has a corresponding capability, not visible to the C address space)
With significant performance and memory overhead. That just isn't the same ballpark that Rust is playing in although hugely important if you want to bring forward performance insensitive C code into a more secure execution environment.
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How confident are you that memory safety (or lack thereof) is a significant variable in how fast a compiler is?
Zig is less memory safe than Rust, but more than C/C++. Neither Zig nor Rust is fundamentally memory safe.
What? Zig is definitively not memory-safe, while safe Rust, is, by definition, memory-safe. Unsafe rust is not memory-safe, but you generally don't need to have a lot of it around.
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Zig is a small and simple language. It doesn't need a complicated compiler.
Rust is a large and robust language meant for serious systems programming. The scope of problems Rust addresses is large, and Rust seeks to be deployed to very large scale software problems.
These two are not the same and do not merit an apples to apples comparison.
edit: I made some changes to my phrasing. I described Zig as a "toy" language, which wasn't the right wording.
These languages are at different stages of maturity, have different levels of complexity, and have different customers. They shouldn't be measured against each other so superficially.
This is an amusing argument to make in favor of Rust, since it's exactly the kind of dismissive statement that Ada proponents make about other languages including Rust.
Come on now. This isn't acceptable behavior.
(EDIT: The parent has since edited this comment to contain more than just "zig bad rust good", but I still think the combative-ness and insulting tone at the time I made this comment isn't cool.)
> but I still think the combative-ness and insulting tone at the time I made this comment isn't cool
Respectfully, the parent only offers up a Zig compile time metric. That's it. That's the entire comment.
This HN post about Rust is now being dominated by a cheap shot Zig one liner humblebrag from the lead author of Zig.
I think this thread needs a little more nuance.
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