There's been a big shift of rich people avoiding taking pay or dividends. Instead they get paid in stock, and then get interest free loans secured on that stock to actually spend money.
It's a loophole the mega-rich are using to avoid tax.
The other thing that's happened is that a lot of the mega-rich have lobbied to gradually chip away at inheritance taxes. So again they just pass the asset, paying a fraction of the taxes they'd have paid had they been a "normal" tax payer.
And one of the big things they've got? No capital gains on those stocks when passed to children.
So yeah, we need to tax assets as well as income. Because anything that's not taxed the rich just funnel money into it to avoid paying tax.
Not just rich people. Here in estonia small startups like mine pay minimum tax, and reinvest the rest in company.
> There's been a big shift of rich people avoiding taking pay or dividends. Instead they get paid in stock, and then get interest free loans secured on that stock to actually spend money.
They have a stockholding in a firm, and the firm pays CIT on income earned. That sounds fair.
> The other thing that's happened is that a lot of the mega-rich have lobbied to gradually chip away at inheritance taxes. So again they just pass the asset, paying a fraction of the taxes they'd have paid had they been a "normal" tax payer.
Why should my kids be liable to pay a tax when they inherit my house? That house was bought by my income on which PIT was duty fully paid. Again sounds very fair to me.
> And one of the big things they've got? No capital gains on those stocks when passed to children.
If you just think it's the government stealing your stuff, then it seems very unfair to have your stuff taxed after you die.
But what tax is, under another lens, is a way to divert the capacity of a state to social ends. Everything from the military to the police to prisons and the justice system is what enables you to live in peace and accumulate stuff in the first place. Those are social goods.
So how do you fund this spending? How do you incentivize other people to protect your house? Well, the solution of tax is they take a little bit of your stuff over time, in a predictable way, according to rules that are pre-agreed and can be changed with consensus.
I think taxing assets is a horrible idea, but the simple solution to all of this is simply not having any step up in basis when assets are transferred to heirs - that way the tax eventually gets paid even if it’s deferred.
The underlying problem is the UK is reverting back to a system where you have property and can then therefore build wealth, or you don't have property, and somewhere to live costs over 50% of your net income.
This isn't to say taxing wealth is actually the solution, but it's the catch all that people like to scream about.
30% of pensioners are millionaires in the UK, and they recieve a state pension. Fixing that would probably immediately turn a massive budget surplus ( albeit a nasty suprise for financial planning ).
However, suddenly if you find pensioners releasing funds from their property, you affect what's going to be inherited and that's a no go area. There's no real concept of fairness in the debate, just the politics of it all.
It's not a revolutionary idea. That I know of, the Netherlands does it, somewhat. How it works is: rather than taxing capital gains, with its myriad loopholes and counterloopholes, you tax assets directly: assume a neutral sort of "risk-free" rate of return, and then tax a percentage of that. E.g. assume yearly return of 1% on cash and savings, 6% on other assets, etc, then levy tax of 30% on that (past a tax-free allowance of 25k€ per person).
Americans become idiots when it comes to tax, unable to understand even the simplest concepts or fathom that things might have been possibly implemented elsewhere.
Hell even Switzerland taxes global assets. You just declare your stocks, property, etc at some instantaneous value and that’s that. Capital gains aren’t taxed.
The system is easy to cheat and until recently it was possible for HNW people to get a bespoke deal when moving there. But the tax rate is low enough and the risk is high enough that it’s more beneficial to just pay.
I would consider it very destabilizing idea and an affront to fairness really.
As an example, Wouldn't that mean that if my startup raises a round of 1m for 10%, my NW would go to 0 to 9m. 6% of that would be around 0.5m, and 30% tax would mean I would have to pay 162,000 EUR in taxes.
As a cash poor founder how do you suggest I pay that.
That's why taxing income and not wealth has been the norm.
Have you considered taking a measly 20 seconds out of your day—surely a fraction of the time you took to type this comment—to google this information?
Another point: have you considered that the authorities and people of the Netherlands, a very rich country with several valuable companies, may have possibly thought of this absolutely trivial argument when designing their tax code? Do you really think nobody thought of it?
Jesus
---
To your point: stakes in your _own_ company are not taxed as assets, but as income, precisely to avoid the ridiculous situation you point out.
Simply put: your retirement savings, your brokerage account = assets, your startup, your company, your farm = income.
There's been a big shift of rich people avoiding taking pay or dividends. Instead they get paid in stock, and then get interest free loans secured on that stock to actually spend money.
It's a loophole the mega-rich are using to avoid tax.
The other thing that's happened is that a lot of the mega-rich have lobbied to gradually chip away at inheritance taxes. So again they just pass the asset, paying a fraction of the taxes they'd have paid had they been a "normal" tax payer.
And one of the big things they've got? No capital gains on those stocks when passed to children.
So yeah, we need to tax assets as well as income. Because anything that's not taxed the rich just funnel money into it to avoid paying tax.
Not just rich people. Here in estonia small startups like mine pay minimum tax, and reinvest the rest in company.
> There's been a big shift of rich people avoiding taking pay or dividends. Instead they get paid in stock, and then get interest free loans secured on that stock to actually spend money.
They have a stockholding in a firm, and the firm pays CIT on income earned. That sounds fair.
> The other thing that's happened is that a lot of the mega-rich have lobbied to gradually chip away at inheritance taxes. So again they just pass the asset, paying a fraction of the taxes they'd have paid had they been a "normal" tax payer.
Why should my kids be liable to pay a tax when they inherit my house? That house was bought by my income on which PIT was duty fully paid. Again sounds very fair to me.
> And one of the big things they've got? No capital gains on those stocks when passed to children.
Again sounds fair to me.
The heart of this is what you think tax is.
If you just think it's the government stealing your stuff, then it seems very unfair to have your stuff taxed after you die.
But what tax is, under another lens, is a way to divert the capacity of a state to social ends. Everything from the military to the police to prisons and the justice system is what enables you to live in peace and accumulate stuff in the first place. Those are social goods.
So how do you fund this spending? How do you incentivize other people to protect your house? Well, the solution of tax is they take a little bit of your stuff over time, in a predictable way, according to rules that are pre-agreed and can be changed with consensus.
2 replies →
I think taxing assets is a horrible idea, but the simple solution to all of this is simply not having any step up in basis when assets are transferred to heirs - that way the tax eventually gets paid even if it’s deferred.
The underlying problem is the UK is reverting back to a system where you have property and can then therefore build wealth, or you don't have property, and somewhere to live costs over 50% of your net income.
This isn't to say taxing wealth is actually the solution, but it's the catch all that people like to scream about.
30% of pensioners are millionaires in the UK, and they recieve a state pension. Fixing that would probably immediately turn a massive budget surplus ( albeit a nasty suprise for financial planning ).
However, suddenly if you find pensioners releasing funds from their property, you affect what's going to be inherited and that's a no go area. There's no real concept of fairness in the debate, just the politics of it all.
3 replies →
It's not a revolutionary idea. That I know of, the Netherlands does it, somewhat. How it works is: rather than taxing capital gains, with its myriad loopholes and counterloopholes, you tax assets directly: assume a neutral sort of "risk-free" rate of return, and then tax a percentage of that. E.g. assume yearly return of 1% on cash and savings, 6% on other assets, etc, then levy tax of 30% on that (past a tax-free allowance of 25k€ per person).
Simple, and more effective!
Americans become idiots when it comes to tax, unable to understand even the simplest concepts or fathom that things might have been possibly implemented elsewhere.
Hell even Switzerland taxes global assets. You just declare your stocks, property, etc at some instantaneous value and that’s that. Capital gains aren’t taxed.
The system is easy to cheat and until recently it was possible for HNW people to get a bespoke deal when moving there. But the tax rate is low enough and the risk is high enough that it’s more beneficial to just pay.
I would consider it very destabilizing idea and an affront to fairness really.
As an example, Wouldn't that mean that if my startup raises a round of 1m for 10%, my NW would go to 0 to 9m. 6% of that would be around 0.5m, and 30% tax would mean I would have to pay 162,000 EUR in taxes.
As a cash poor founder how do you suggest I pay that.
That's why taxing income and not wealth has been the norm.
I think you missed the part that this was in Europe, no need to worry about startups
Have you considered taking a measly 20 seconds out of your day—surely a fraction of the time you took to type this comment—to google this information?
Another point: have you considered that the authorities and people of the Netherlands, a very rich country with several valuable companies, may have possibly thought of this absolutely trivial argument when designing their tax code? Do you really think nobody thought of it?
Jesus
---
To your point: stakes in your _own_ company are not taxed as assets, but as income, precisely to avoid the ridiculous situation you point out.
Simply put: your retirement savings, your brokerage account = assets, your startup, your company, your farm = income.
3 replies →
Not to mention no one would pay you $9m for your stake and for you to walk away…