Comment by KK7NIL
20 hours ago
> My understanding is that they did, but don't any more; it's no longer true that humans understand enough things about chess better than computers for the human/computer collaboration to contribute anything over just using the computer.
This is not true, at least not in very long time formats like correspondence chess: https://en.chessbase.com/post/correspondence-chess-and-corre...
There's also many well known cases where even very strong engines miscalculate and can be beaten (especially in fast time controls or closed positions): https://www.chess.com/blog/SamCopeland/hikaru-nakamura-crush...
The horizon effect is still very real in engines, although it's getting harder and harder to exploit.
Your Nakamura example is from 2008. That's 17 years ago. The machines have improved a lot since then, hardware and software both. I've seen Nakamura beat strong-but-still-limited bots playing "anti-computer chess" but I am fairly sure he would be eaten alive if he tried it against present-day Stockfish or Leela on good hardware.
Maybe you're right about correspondence chess. That interview is from 2018 and the machines have got distinctly stronger in that time, but 7 years isn't so long and it could be that human input still has some value for CC.
I'm aware the Nakamura example is old, but the core issue (the horizon effect) is still there in any alpha/beta pruning engine, including the newest SF. But I will certainly grant you that it has become much harder to execute since then. MCTS engines (like Lc0) are far more immune to the horizon effect, but can instead suffer from missing very shallow tactics, especially in very fast time controls, as Andrew Tang showed in his match against an early version of Lc0 7 years ago: https://lichess.org/@/lichess/blog/gm-andrew-tang-defends-hu...
> Maybe you're right about correspondence chess. That interview is from 2018 and the machines have got distinctly stronger in that time, but 7 years isn't so long and it could be that human input still has some value for CC.
I've played on ICCF and I can say that the draw situation is much worse now, exactly because engines are so much stronger now, so it's much harder to find good opening novelties against a competent opponent. Engines were infamous for misjudging many closed openings like the KID, but even in the last few years that has really tightened up.
Still, the human element is useful in trying to steer clear of drawish openings and middlegame lines.
There's a beautiful game between SF and Lc0 (a few months ago) where Stockfish thinks it's winning, while Lc0 has a lock on a draw. Lc0 then proceeds to sack 4 pieces and draw, but SF (with NNUE) only "sees" the draw 2 moves into the position.
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