Comment by ianbicking
3 days ago
I remember reading an article on one of the classic rationalist blogs (but they write SO MUCH I can't possibly find it) describing something like "rational epistemic skepticism" – or maybe a better term I can't recall either. (As noted below: "Epistemic learned helplessness")
The basic idea: an average person can easily be intellectually overwhelmed by a clever person (maybe the person is smarter, or more educated, or maybe they just studied up on a subject a lot). They basically know this... and also know that it's not because the clever person is always right. Because there's lots of these people, and not every clever person thinks the same thing, so they obviously can't all be right. But the average person (average with respect to whatever subject) is still rational and isn't going to let their beliefs bounce around. So they develop a defensive stance, a resistance to being convinced. And it's right that they do!
If someone confronts you with the PERFECT ARGUMENT, is it because the argument is true and revelatory? Or does it involve some slight of hand? The latter is much more likely
I tend to like the ethos/logos/pathos model. Arguments from clever people can sound convincing because ethos gets mixed in. And anyone can temporarily confuse someone by using pathos. This is why it's better to have arguments externalized in a form that can be reviewed on their own, logos only. It's the only style that can stand on its own without that ephemeral effect (aside from facts changing), and it's also the only one that can be adopted and owned by any listener that reviews it and proves it true to themselves.
It's usually dumb people that have so many facts and different arguments that one can't keep up with.
And they usually have so many of those because they were convinced to pay disproportionate attention to it and don't see the need to check anything or reject bad sources.
I noticed something similar. People who believe in absolute garbage tend to be the ones that don't have robust bs filter that would let them quickly reject absolute garbage. And it's surprisingly orthogonal to person's intelligence. There's correlation but even very intelligent people can have very weak bs filter and their intelligence post-rationalizes the absolute garbage they were unable to reject.
Robust bs detectors may also leave a person susceptible to rejecting novel or unorthodox ideas. Theres a balance somewhere between not being overwhelmed by the sea of crazy and still being open to a good idea when it comes along.
Edit: This thread is amazing. 12 years of pre-uni schooling and no mention of any of this stuff... Also fair criticism of IRA too in the article. Still, seems a little ironic that the people crying foul benefited from the status quo of an uneducated populace.
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Was it this one? “Epistemic learned helplessness”
https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learn...
Yes, that's the one, thank you!
The problem isn't the PERFECT ARGUMENT, it's the argument that doesn't look like an argument at all.
Take anti-vaxxers. If you try to argue with the science, you've already lost, because anti-vaxxers have been propagandised into believing they're protecting their kids.
How? By being told that vaccinations are promoted by people who are trying to harm their kids and exploit the public for cash.
And who tells them? People like them. Not scientists. Not those smart people who look down on you for being stupid.
No, it's influencers who are just like them, part of the same tribe. Someone you could socialise with. Someone like you.
Someone who only has your best interests at heart.
And that's how it works. That's why the anti-vax and climate denial campaigns run huge bot farms with vast social media holdings which insert, amplify, and reinforce the "These people are evil and not like us and want to make you poor and harm your kids" messaging, combined with "But believe this and you will keep your kids safe".
Far-right messaging doesn't argue rationally at all. It's deliberate and cynically calculated to trigger fear, disgust, outrage, and protectiveness.
Consider how many far-right hot button topics centre on protecting kids from "weird, different, not like us" people - foreigners, intellectuals, scientists, unorthodox creatives and entertainers, people with unusual sexualities, outgroup politicians. And so on.
So when someone tries to argue with it rationally, they get nowhere. The "argument" is over before it starts.
It's not even about rhetoric or cleverness - both of which are overrated. It's about emotional conditioning using emotional triggers, tribal framing, and simple moral narratives, embedded with constant repetition and aggressive reinforcement.
I liked your point about tribalism up until you said one tribe is rational and the other not. The distribution of rational behavior does not change much tribe to tribe, it's the values that change. As soon as you say one tribe is more rational than another you're just feeding into more tribalism by insulting a whole group's intelligence.
I think the real problem is that zero friction global communication and social media has dramatically decreased the incentive to be thoughtful about anything. The winning strategy for anyone in the public eye is just to use narratives that resonate with people's existing worldview, because there is so much information out there and our civilization has become so complex that it's overwhelming to think about anything from first principles. Combine that with the dilution of local power as more and more things have gone online and global, a lot of the incentives for people to be truthful and have integrity are gone or at least dramatically diminished compared to the entirety of human history prior to the internet.
>I liked your point about tribalism up until you said one tribe is rational and the other not. The distribution of rational behavior does not change much tribe to tribe, it's the values that change. As soon as you say one tribe is more rational than another you're just feeding into more tribalism by insulting a whole group's intelligence.
That was largely the case until these most recent electoral cycle, where the Great Crank Realignment, driven by the COVID response, pushed conspiracy theorists, health and wellness grifters, supplement hawkers, and many others to the right.
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I’ll push back - the term is rational as in logical.
Rational in the sense that it flows from what emotional choices resonate ? That’s more in terms of faithful to their beliefs. I wouldn’t call that rational per se.
And being scared of tribalism is not necessary, because tribalism is what is currently being highly effective at creating political power.
So some degree of tribalism, is simply matching the competition.
I really think most of these statements apply to both political sides of messaging in a majority of cases. You can't talk about in-group out-group unless you draw a line somewhere, and in your comment you drew a line between people who represent science and rationality and those that are fearful and reactionary, which you'd believe to be a sensible place to draw that line if you habitually consume basically any media. The actual science seems mostly incidental to any kind of conversation about it.
Some people are crippled by anxiety and fear of the unknown or fear of their neighbors. It's sad, but it's not unique to political alignment.
I think that what they were saying was that in-groups are trusted because of familiarity which can be exploited in order to instill messaging which drives emotional decision making over reasoned contemplation. 'Scientists' were part of the exampled used which invoked a contemporary issue (anti-vax). They are attributing these messaging systems to be a component of organized right wing campaigns; an attribution which at this point in time is rather uncontroversial.
That they would see themselves as part of the rational group opposed to a campaign of weaponized social levers which turn people against evidence in order to further the goals of a different group which is not actually aligned with those they are manipulating is not insightful or provocative. It seems to reason they would.
The implication that it means there is some sort of political 'both sides'ism that degrades their point is incredibly weak.
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I’d like to mildly point out that this style of caricaturing ideologies is one of the most effective at entrenching those same ideologies. If you can recognize that those critiquing you are doing so in bad faith, not only does it make the critique easy to dismiss, it provides evidence for the prior that all critiques are in bad faith and can be safely ignored.
Bit of a problem when we can see the bad faith factory. As the OP article points out, there are troll farms which are "working" both sides of an argument by supplying bad faith arguments. With the intent of provoking conflict, rather than a victory for either side.
It's also mentioned in "the authoritarians" (search for the book and the short-form essay) - roughly half the population is driven by intellectual curiosity about all kinds of things and don't always agree on much - they just want freedom to be individuals.
The other half is driven by fear, disgust, paranoia, etc.. That second group is much easier to trigger / convince - just play on their fears about their kids, their friends, their church ("will ban Bibles and churches"), etc.. (I was raised in this kind of environment).
Authoritarians WANT a "strong leader" to tell them what to think, how to act, etc. That's how they show they belong to the tribe: they believe everything that is said, they give the most $$ to their church, etc.
A complicating factor when talking about rationality and propensity towards either left- or right-wing authoritarian impulses is brain structure, according to a recently publish study.
"Young adults who scored higher on right-wing authoritarianism had less gray matter volume in the dorsomedial prefrontal cortex, a region involved in social reasoning. Meanwhile, those who endorsed more extreme forms of left-wing authoritarianism showed reduced cortical thickness in the right anterior insula, a brain area tied to empathy and emotion regulation."
Not only is it tribalism, it's also individuals fundamental anatomy. This seems like a very challenging problem if the people you are hoping to convince are hardwired against your message.
https://www.psypost.org/authoritarian-attitudes-linked-to-al... (layperson's summary)
https://www.ibroneuroscience.org/article/S0306-4522(25)00304... (actual study)
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There's an essay on thinking styles: fuzzy narrative big picture culture versus logical detail culture. https://www.someweekendreading.blog/math-illiterate-rulers/
> Take anti-vaxxers. If you try to argue with the science, you've already lost, because anti-vaxxers have been propagandised into believing they're protecting their kids
What do you think causes vaccine injury?
Do you believe in these zoonotic origin theory of Covid, rather than the Wuhan coronavirus Institute accidentally releasing a coronavirus in Wuhan? Why do you think that is?
Why do you think vaccine manufacturers asked governments for blanket immunity from prosecution?
Why does the United States require children to get so many more vaccines than other developed western countries?
Do you think you are assuming which side is rational?
Vaccine injury is a thing that actually happens. It really does.
Also, unvaccinated people die from diseases that vaccines prevent. That happens too.
The problem with the anti-vaxxers is their assessment of the balance of risks is distorted.
The problem with the "vaccine establishment" is that it's so certain that the balance of risks are in favor of vaccines that it's willing to hide the actual risks in order to get more people to take the vaccines. That's not only morally wrong, it also may do more harm than good in the end. (Which is the same thing if you take a consequentialist view of morals.)
Ah yes. People who think like you and agree with you are rational, not prone to fear, disgust outrage, or protectiveness. But people who disagree with you are obviously irrational and can't be reasoned with. You are "educated" and they are "fear-mongers".
> But people who disagree with you are obviously irrational and can't be reasoned with.
You are saying this with sarcasm, but it is a tautology.
If I am factually correct, by definition, everyone who disagrees with me is irrational and can't be reasoned with.
Anti-vax is a great example of this. We have loads and loads and loads of evidence of the harm that not being vaccinated can do (now including dead children thanks to measles) and very scant evidence to the contrary (there is some for specific vaccines for specific diseases like Polio). However, until it hits an anti-vaxxer personally, they simply will refuse to believe it.
Of course, once an anti-vaxxer personally gets a disease, NOW the anti-vaxxers want the vaccine. Thus, demonstrating simultaneously that they actually don't understand a single damn thing about vaccines and that their "anti-vaxx belief" was irrational as well.
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Just to add a little to the discussion, I suspect that the "not like us" messaging is mostly a right-wing thing, while there's more of a "don't contaminate my fluids" argument from the far-left.
Neither is a rational argument, and still trigger the same disgust and fear, but tend to have different implications for outgroups.
> "don't contaminate my fluids" argument from the far-left
What does this refer to? I assume it has nothing to do with Flint, Michigan ;-)
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Was it this one? https://slatestarcodex.com/2019/06/03/repost-epistemic-learn...
repetition breeds rationalism. variety of phrasing breeds facts.
it's how the brain works. the more cognitive and perceptive angles agree on the observed, the more likely it is, that the observed is really / actually observed.
polysemous language (ambiguity) makes it easy to manipulate the observed. reinterpretation, mere exposure and thus coopted, portfolio communist media and journalism, optimize, while using AI for everything will make it as efficient as it gets.
keep adding new real angles and they'll start to sweat or throw towels and tantrums and aim for the weak.
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