Comment by gtsop
9 months ago
Can you elaborate on why this is a risk factor? What do you mean by saying we're giving him root? If a person is paranoid of being chased i would expect them to put even more effort into the security of the OS he develops, not to add backdoors. But please expand your own reasoning.
To put it simply, the (at the time) lead developer of GOS and Rossmann had some disagreements.
At the time, Rossmann was mainly using GOS, but due to what he perceived as hostile behavior from GOS toward him through their communication, he opted to stop using GOS (at least on his main device, as he claims).
His rationale was that the behavior of said lead developer was not "rational" and "scary", and since the developer has not only edit access to GOS code but also update publishing infrastructure, Rossmann's data or himself could be targeted through malicious code pushed via an update, for example. While GOS is opensource and malicious code or exploits could be detected by the community, he himself did not have confidence to audit the source code to make sure it was safe, hence his decision to stop using.
By risk factor, I think the grandparent suggests that something similar could happen to someone else using GOS, the risk factor being essentially at the mercy of GOS developer, would they wish to harm said user.
So rossmann literally feared of a patch that was like this getting into graphene
if (user is rossmann) {
}
makes me think who is paranoid here.
Note that this patch would have to be sent out to all users though, since I don't think there is an authentication mechanism that lets them send out different upgrades to different users.
And if your whole business is a secure OS, it's a very risky proposition: you get caught doing this once, and your reputation is gone forever.
Your example is a strawman, as a determined enough actor, especially a security expert(s) like GOS developers could pull it off and get such patch / exploit. The probability is not zero. It will probably not be obvious to spot, would be spread over multiple files of code that don't necessarily relate to each other at first glance, as many documented CVE illustrated (one that comes to mind given HN context is the XZ utils backdoor from last year for e.g.)
Rossmann himself has no confidence to audit the code, so why take the risk ? Good enough reason to be "paranoid", or at least feel uneasy about it if you ask me.
3 replies →
> Rossmann's data or himself could be targeted through malicious code pushed via an update, for example. While GOS is opensource and malicious code or exploits could be detected by the community, he himself did not have confidence to audit the source code to make sure it was safe, hence his decision to stop using.
This isn't even possible given how updates on GrapheneOS work. The update client doesn't send identifiers to the update server, and the update server only hosts static files.
Rossmann either doesn't understand this, or he made it up to get more views, or possibly to entertain fellow Kiwi Farms members.
To be honest, I don't think that he didn't understand that he couldn't be targeted. He continued using GrapheneOS for months after the video. As I understand it, it was clear in a few videos months after the initial video was published.
> This isn't even possible given how updates on GrapheneOS work. The update client doesn't send identifiers to the update server, and the update server only hosts static files.
> Rossmann either doesn't understand this, or he made it up to get more views, or possibly to entertain fellow Kiwi Farms members.
Expecting a layman to know that is not reasonable. The argument is not about the GOS updates work in practice. It is about the "perpection", from Rossmann's perspective that the lead dev of the OS is hostile against him. Humans are not purely rational machines, and given the choice of either 1) spend hours auditing source code and updates pipelines (every release ?) and 2) stop using it for critical purpose, the latter is the easier choice, especially for a busy person like him.
> To be honest, I don't think that he didn't understand that he couldn't be targeted. He continued using GrapheneOS for months after the video. As I understand it, it was clear in a few videos months after the initial video was published.
For all we know, he is using it on his secondary device where he has removed what he deems critical. Again, Rossmann NEVER said "don't use Graphene OS", or "Graphene OS lack security" or anything of the sort. If anything, even after that video, he kept recommending GOS whenever he talked about privacy.
His argument is that he did not feel safe knowing using software from a hostile developer; and that he can't be bothered / not qualified to audit the code well enough to make it worth it (which is reasonable if you ask me, and I dare say most people).
Edit: > Rossmann either doesn't understand this Again, I agree with you here. He does not understand. He trusted the developer(s) to know what they are doing, but they broke that trust by being unreasonable, to say the least. He is under no obligation to understand. As for what you stated after that, I won't comment on it as I don't read minds, and pretty sure neither do you.
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Well, he can do everything to your phone, software and data by pushing software updates. When there was a dispute in the former project copperhead he deleted the cryptographic keys, blocking software updates. Paranoia could result in just making the system more secure, but why not add a backdoor to find the spies in your userbases that communicate with the black suited men that secretly run our government? After all it is easy, they all play a specific game where they communicate via secret messages in chat.
You just don't know what will happen is what I'm saying.
The "he has root" is also a reference to ubuntus shuttleworth.
> when there was a dispute in the former project copperhead
You mean who tried to hijack the project in a very questionable direction, harming their users, he rather lighted the project on fire then let the users' security be compromised?
If anything, that is the greatest compliment you could give him.
Also, this is fud that he can push any kind of code, like you can easily check any part of the pipeline.
> You mean who tried to hijack the project in a very questionable direction, harming their users, he rather lighted the project on fire then let the users' security be compromised? > If anything, that is the greatest compliment you could give him.
On one hand, sure it can be a compliment. On the other hand, it only increases the perception that he is could enact significant harm if he ever comes after you.
> Also, this is fud that he can push any kind of code, like you can easily check any part of the pipeline.
Who is "you" ? Neither Rossmann, neither me (software dev albeit not in cybersecurity), and even less so the average GOS user, and I would venture to guess that neither you can audit GOS code with enough confidence to declare that the risk of an exploit or backdoor being introduced is zero. Open-source is not a guarantee that code or software is secure (for e.g. CVE in xz utils and many such cases).
Edit: some clarifications.
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This is on a level of "5G causes autism" understanding of the topic. Maybe learn how reproducible builds and cryptographic signatures work.
> This is on a level of "5G causes autism" understanding of the topic
That sums it up perfectly
Wow. Reading and responding to your comments in this thread, I can see you are very motivated to trash GrapheneOS and its founder.
> Well, he can do everything to your phone, software and data by pushing software updates.
Other developers are doing the bulk of development work these days, so this is nonsense.
> Paranoia could result in just making the system more secure, but why not add a backdoor to find the spies in your userbases that communicate with the black suited men that secretly run our government?
Again with the baseless claims that he's crazy. Your argument here is that "he is crazy, so maybe this happens too." It's nonsense. There are no backdoors, and if there ever were any backdoors, they would be found. GrapheneOS isn't some small project that nobody knows about. It's famous for being very secure, even famous people have said publicly that they use it or others should use it. Cellebrite cannot even hack into it. Backdoors wouldn't go unnoticed. This is also nonsense.
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