Comment by rafaelmn
4 days ago
I inherited an MVC app that has a bunch of jQuery rendering crap and I would like to move to server side components - since you seem to be into Blazor Server side - have you heard of HTMX ?
What would you say would be the benefit of Blazor vs HTMX and Razor Pages for subviews ?
My experience with Microsoft UI toolkits after winforms, is that they are all janky over-engineered stuff (Silverlight/WPF/Xamarin/Maui) terrible tooling and support compared to alternatives. And Blazor using websockets makes me believe it is the same. The compile to WASM idea is a typical example of this.
So what would be the selling point of Blazor ? It feels like you are just bundling stuff into Blazor magic when you could KISS with something simple like HTMX ?
As of today (and going forward), there are two different flavors of Blazor server-side rendering. There is the original version where the component is rendered on the server and interactivity is provided via websockets. Now there is also static server-side rendering, which works very similarly to razor pages, pages/components are rendered on the server and there is no interactivity. You can then, of course, add interactivity wherever you'd need it with server-interactive or webassembly interactive sub-components.
I wouldn't necessarily say there's any benefit of Blazor over HTMX, it just depends on what you're most comfortable with and what works for you in your project. But you could architect your front-end in a similar way where you have small blazor components in your pages with interactivity.
I think Blazor is in a nice state now, where I can iterate very quickly on projects with just static server side rendering and add interactivity whenever it's needed. It gives me a very fast website, rendered on the server, and the option to add some interactivity whenever I need.
I still haven't found a use-case for the websocket Blazor Hybrid and it still smells so much like the worst mistakes of the original ASP (before .NET) and the `runat="client"` versus `runat="server"` confusions.
Blazor WASM makes some sense if Silverlight ever made sense for a project: it's a way to ship C# directly to the browser for maximal code sharing with other C# projects in a C# ecosystem. It's basically "what if Angular/React was just Razor Pages running on the browser?"
It's absolutely the opposite of KISS, it's lifting and shifting the entire .NET runtime in WASM to the client. Outside of corporate networks and packaged apps like Electron or Tauri, I'm not sure it makes any sense. But if you like writing Razor Pages and wished they ran closer to the client metal, and you can afford the bandwidth of an entire .NET application soup-to-nuts as your SPA framework, there is a sense to it.
If all you think you need is Razor Pages with HTMX that's probably all you need.
>I still haven't found a use-case for the websocket Blazor Hybrid and it still smells so much like the worst mistakes of the original ASP (before .NET) and the `runat="client"` versus `runat="server"` confusions.
That is exactly my read of it, especially given Microsoft track record on delivering with stuff like this.
Not sure about the Silverlight comparison - in the days of Flash, browsers did not even have a way to stream video reliably, nowadays it just cramming a square peg in to a round hole - heavyweight runtime built on multithreading crammed to a single threaded event loop. I have not tried it - but after using .net in much more powerful/native envs like Android - I know for a fact that the iteration/build/debugging story sucks compared to native JS/TS. Also as bad JS is, TS makes it saner, tooling has matured and DOM APIs are built for JS.
> nowadays it just cramming a square peg in to a round hole - heavyweight runtime built on multithreading crammed to a single threaded event loop
Sometimes the "event loop" part is forgotten because JS' single threaded thing is very "cooperatively threaded". This is a large part of why async/await works so well in JS and is growing so quickly in adoptions. .NET's multithreading is built in a way to excel in "cooperatively threaded" environments (its task pools are cooperative by default, for instance, and also arguably heavy use of async/await was C#'s idea first).
It would be great to see more WASM multithreading powers, but writing C# for today's WASM environment doesn't feel that different from "regular" multi-threaded C#.
> I know for a fact that the iteration/build/debugging story sucks compared to native JS/TS
WASM debugging is nearly great, including growing Sourcemap support. The ability for Visual Studio to be the Debugger interface to Chromium-based browsers is more powerful that ever. Certainly in its debugging story Blazor WASM is much advanced from Silverlight which was only really debuggable in IE and then was still often flaky.
> DOM APIs are built for JS
There's still talk of making more direct DOM APIs for WASM. Might be interesting to see eventually.
This is why it is so easy to relate Blazor WASM to React. Blazor is essentially using Razor templates to define a Virtual DOM which it then sends render updates across the WASM/JS boundary to a very tiny virtual DOM renderer.
It's not what I'd use for smarter direct DOM work, but in comparison to React it gets the job done and works surprisingly well, even with the language barrier and data marshalling across sandbox layers.
I've used Blazor WASM on Enterprise projects. I'd probably use it again on Enterprise projects. It can be real nice to have backend and frontend all entirely in C#. (In different projects. So that you can scale them independently if nothing else.)
Blazor static server side + HTMX is probably the only way to make a cost efficient and performant version of Blazor suitable for public websites. WASM is way too big and slow, Websockets take up server resources and cause problems with timeouts where the user has to refresh their screen losing all state.
What would be the benefit over Razor pages tho ? Component model ? Feels like partial views and razor templates might not be the cleanest/dry-est solution but would make the implementation super straightforawd.
Yeah there is basically no real difference between MVC or RazorPages or BlazorStaticServer pick your poison depending on your preference. Personally I wish the .NET team would just add components to MVC and RazorPages then we can forget about Blazor.
Jetbrains built some awesome tooling to support HTMX apps using razor engine and some MVC conventions. It's pretty neat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uS6m37jhdqM&t=1800s