Comment by the_af
8 days ago
As I said, we already had this conversation ages ago and your side lost.
Shout until you're blue in the face, and you'll be just as wrong.
I've already stated my position, and "because you can get away with it" is no part of it. You must be confusing me with someone else in this conversation.
Half your examples fail to make the point you intend, and are not at all analogous to watching a pirated TV show. A lot of the rest use an informal (not legal, and highly subjective) definition of the word "theft" -- but you knew this.
It's exhausting to keep repeating this. Please read what's been said (hint: these are decades old arguments, we're not going to rehash them here for your benefit).
All of this harkens back to even before the days of the silly "you wouldn't steal a car" (2004) antipiracy campaign. I hope I don't need to explain that stealing a car and pirating a TV show are nothing alike, neither legally nor morally.
> As I said, we already had this conversation ages ago and your side lost.
Repeating that does not make it true.
> A lot of the rest use an informal (not legal, and highly subjective) definition of the word "theft" -- but you knew this.
Yes, all the examples I gave are exactly of that. I think we are in violent agreement here.
> It's exhausting to keep repeating this.
I do agree it's exhausting, because neither you nor the decades of arguments (where I have repeatedly brought it up, but well, the Internet is a big place) have addressed this point. Let me lay it out in more detail:
1. All society and trade is based on exchange of value. This is true since the oldest days of barter.
2. When somebody provides something of value and gets something they value in return, that is a fair trade. The exact amounts of value are negotiable (including zero, cf. creative commons, but again this is based on the provider's consent.) This is the fundamental basis of trade.
3. So when someone takes something of value -- physical goods or abstract things like services or TV shows -- without giving its provider something of acceptable value in return, it is considered unfair and morally wrong. Which is why society has decided to make it legally wrong as well.
So whether it's stealing a car or pirating a TV show, it is essentially taking something of value without giving any in exchange, for which the word "theft" is perfectly fine.
> So when someone takes something of value
> it is essentially taking something of value
Intellectual property is not "taken". It is not a tangible good that can change hands. Copies are made instead.
Copyright refers to the right to make copies.
Having a copyright means having the right to make copies.
To infringe someone's copyright is to make copies despite the right to make copies belonging to someone else.
The words are self-explanatory.
Real property logic and words do not apply to intellectual property. Insisting on their use is bad faith argumentation. It is an attempt to convince others by shock and manipulation. Virtually nobody is moved by such a nebulous crime as copyright infringement, so the words theft and piracy are substituted in its place for greater impact.
Sigh, I knew the word "take" would invoke pedanticity...
So when you "take interest" or "take advantage" or "take a look" or "take your time", what tangible good is being "taken"?
When you "take pleasure in something", like say a TV show, you are deriving value from it. What tangible goods are involved here?
When somebody provides you a service -- say washing your car -- you are still taking value from it even without a single tangible good being given. Or would you not pay the person because no "tangible good" has been given to you?
English is a rich language and pedanticity does not help this debate. Instead, you may want to address the core argument: when someone provides value (again: goods AND services) to another party and does not receive acceptable value in return, it is considered immoral, which is why society has made it illegal.
And yes, the word "theft" is prefectly suitable in this case. Otherwise you should explain why all of these involve some loss to party and are immoral / illegal without a single tangible good being "taken": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44917565
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You are not "taking" anything. It's not theft.
This conversation was settled, whether you like it or not.
It's as frustrating as debating whether slavery is moral or D&D is satanic. We've had this conversation, it's settled.
Piracy is not theft.
Wait, I thought we decided we were using the word "theft" informally. Like all those examples I posted above and you agreed with. What is being "taken" in "wage theft" or "identity theft" or "joke theft"?
> This conversation was settled, whether you like it or not.
Ignoring salient points does not settle a conversation. I laid out the case point-by-point for why not returning fair value when taking something of value (remember: services are not a "thing" and yet provide great value!) is immoral and illegal and often considered "theft". (Again, if you want to nitpick over the word "theft" look at the long list of examples I posted above.) I notice you have not shown any flaw in that logic.
Maybe this conversation frustratingly never ends because this point has never been refuted.
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>As I said, we already had this conversation ages ago and your side lost.
I had a conversation too. Several conversations. And I won those conversations so YOU lost. In fact, just imagine every single stance you've ever had on any topic and just know I had a conversation about it in the past, and you lost.
My point is. Nobody cares about your conversation especially when ALL of those conversations you're referencing are utterly wrong.
>It's exhausting to keep repeating this. Please read what's been said (hint: these are decades old arguments, we're not going to rehash them here for your benefit).
Who the hell is "we?" How about this. Whoever you're referring to, however many decades you guys spent talking about it... you're all wrong. You wasted decades and came up with a wrong outcome.
I didn't mean us two. I meant the collective consensus.
You didn't win. You lost. Read Free Culture by Lessig.
> My point is. Nobody cares about your conversation especially when ALL of those conversations you're referencing are utterly wrong.
Who the hell is "nobody"? Everything you've said so far is "not even wrong", it's utterly nonsensical. Go read what's been said about the topic for the last two decades, then come back and debate from an informed point of view.
Go back to pirating your games while decrying the harm it does. Your position is so inconsistent it makes no sense to debate you.
>I didn't mean us two. I meant the collective consensus. >You didn't win. You lost. Read Free Culture by Lessig.
Who you had a conversation with is meaningless. The winner is what most of the world follows. Not who you personally define who "we" is.
>Who the hell is "nobody"?
Most of the modern world. Most readers on HN. The overwhelming majority of people on this earth are against your opinion.
This "we" you're referring to is an overwhelming minority of opinions.
>Go back to pirating your games while decrying the harm it does. Your position is so inconsistent it makes no sense to debate you.
My position is consistent. I take the role of the villain. I'm a serial killer who is aware that killing is wrong. But I want to be wrong and I don't care for being right.
You're the one who is inconsistent. You're the one rewiring reality to fit your immoral actions. You can't handle the fact that you yourself are a self fish actor.
You want to help the world. Yet you justify paying for things you didn't create because it's more "convenient".
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