I have a friend who, when you bring up exercise in any capacity, how good it is for you, anything about it, even if its just how I did it, he has to find some way to twist it so it can't be good. This thread is so reminiscent of conversations with him.
"Tennis is great for you" "there's probably a correlation with being rich" "Also unhealthy people don't regularly play tennis so there's survivors bias". "But there's free courts" "Nope they turned those into pickleball courts" "Wake up at 4:30am and go for a run" "Bro if youre waking up at 4:30 when are you going to bed" etc
People will find any reason they can to be unhealthy. Its better to just not engage with them.
It was not an attempt at this. Just a thought that all sports are not equal with regard to socioeconomic status and pre existing illnesses. Any exercise is always good and I keep 3-4 times per week
>he has to find some way to twist it so it can't be good [...]
>"Tennis is great for you" "there's probably a correlation with being rich" "Also unhealthy people don't regularly play tennis so there's survivors bias".
But these seem like pretty reasonable objections? At the very least you should retort with a study that at least tried to control for confounders.
>"Wake up at 4:30am and go for a run" "Bro if youre waking up at 4:30 when are you going to bed" etc
I can't tell which side you're trying to strawman here. What's wrong with running at a normal time?
Its mentality. When told "Tennis is likely to have amazing health benefits", you could respond by saying "Sick, I'll integrate more tennis or sports like it into my life". In fact, one might not respond at all, and just do it. But instead, some people have this bug in their programming where they feel compelled to respond with a variant of "well, ahktually, tennis is popular among rich people so there's confounding factors at play which means you can't actually claim...."
The source of this bug is the same reason why when someone says "I wake up at 4:30am to go on a run", you'll 100% always get someone to respond "adequate sleep also matters, what time are you going to bed, you're missing out on important life events that happen after 8pm" etc. The cardinal sin is jealousy; getting up at 4:30am is hard, playing tennis multiple times a week is hard, the opposing side feels jealousy because they aren't doing something that's hard, so they need to find any way to minimize that hard thing they're doing to feel like equals.
Even you're doing this, and you don't realize it: "What's wrong with running at a normal time?". Nothing at all. Literally, seriously, no one even remotely implied there was anything wrong with running at a normal time. Someone choosing to run at 4:30am does not mean not running at 4:30am is bad; but you think it is. Why? Because it is true that running at 4:30am is harder. Harder doesn't always even mean better, especially when it comes to getting up at 4:30am, but it does definitely mean Harder. So: You minimized their strain by asserting that running at 4:30am is "not normal".
This isn't a university, and you're not a test subject. You're a human, who needs to take care of their body. Arguing about the minutia of the results of some research paper is Mindset; its forest for the trees. Literally, no one who adequately exercises would care that much about studies on tennis which adequately control for confounding factors, because they're too busy actually playing tennis, and they've seen and felt the positive effect it has had on their body and don't need a research paper to tell them its healthy.
(I'm just using tennis as an example here; there's plenty of other sports that follow this vein)
> But these seem like pretty reasonable arguments? At the very least you should retort with a study that at least tried to control for confounders.
I disagree. The fundamental premise here is that regular exercise has profound health benefits. Tennis is simply one example.
The rebuttals to tennis here ignore the obvious truth -- there are limitless ways to get regular exercise; you just have to have some time and be willing to put some effort in. With very few exceptions there is nobody in the world for whom it's not a realistic goal.
People who simply do not want to can come up with endless excuses to rationalize it.
One can find a reasonable rebuttal for anything. The point is that pattern only emerges over time—this guy hates exercise and has a knee jerk rationalization to suggest any exercise is bad.
We have a saying, something to the tune of: who wants to do something, seeks the ways, who does not want to do it, seeks the reasons why it can't be done. Those points don't need addressing.
But like, tennis is more of a rich person game and also people with health issues do not play tennis. As in, to.do the scientific claim you in fact have to separate these effects
Sure; I would enjoy talking about these confounding factors, on the tennis court after a round.
My point is that it seems like the only people who bring up trivia like "maybe tennis isn't as good for you as you think it is because there's survivors bias in the population of people used to do studies on the sport" are people who never play tennis. Similarly, if you're a runner you've probably multiple times had people say, directly to you, "oh I could never do that to my knees, running is so bad for them!"
You're explaining micro-gravity in orbit to an astronaut [1]. Leave the science and the confounding factor enumeration and the hypothesis to the academics. Just go play tennis.
Yes, that has become a problem for tennis players, but it's a quite recent problem. Before pickleball became popular, though, free public tennis courts were widespread in urban and suburban areas. Perhaps not in rural areas, though I can't speak definitively on that.
It isn't uncommon for farmers to settup something in their barn for whatever sport they like. the maintenance bay has plenty of space for tennis or whatever.
Conversely, as a life-long resident of the U. S, I've never seen a tennis court that required payment to play, and I've seen plenty of tennis courts. I know paid tennis clubs exist, I've just never stepped foot in one.
Now that I think about it, many decades ago I lived in apartment complexes (Indianapolis, as if it makes a difference) that had tennis courts. I don't know if that's a thing anymore or not.
> Now that I think about it, many decades ago I lived in apartment complexes (Indianapolis, as if it makes a difference) that had tennis courts. I don't know if that's a thing anymore or not.
It was very common. That's where I learned how to play. I have no idea how common it is with new apartment construction though.
> Never seen a free tennis court in my life. I've seen plenty of paid ones though.
My neighborhood (California) has free (city-maintained, open to all) tennis courts. Seems pretty common. Also basketball, soccer and bike trails and swimmin g pool.
If you're in the northeast US it's very common to have free or have to pay a nominal fee for public tennis courts (this may depend on the quality of your town's Park and rec department)
In NYC, it's 15/hr or 100/season. In the town I grew up in it's 20/yr for residents and 40/yr for non residents. I'm my current town it's free. And I suspect that there are waivers/discounts for folks that can't pay that amount.
I have a friend who, when you bring up exercise in any capacity, how good it is for you, anything about it, even if its just how I did it, he has to find some way to twist it so it can't be good. This thread is so reminiscent of conversations with him.
"Tennis is great for you" "there's probably a correlation with being rich" "Also unhealthy people don't regularly play tennis so there's survivors bias". "But there's free courts" "Nope they turned those into pickleball courts" "Wake up at 4:30am and go for a run" "Bro if youre waking up at 4:30 when are you going to bed" etc
People will find any reason they can to be unhealthy. Its better to just not engage with them.
It was not an attempt at this. Just a thought that all sports are not equal with regard to socioeconomic status and pre existing illnesses. Any exercise is always good and I keep 3-4 times per week
Exactly. Now, time to go crank some calisthenics in my garage - for free.
unhealthy fumes in the garage!!
>he has to find some way to twist it so it can't be good [...]
>"Tennis is great for you" "there's probably a correlation with being rich" "Also unhealthy people don't regularly play tennis so there's survivors bias".
But these seem like pretty reasonable objections? At the very least you should retort with a study that at least tried to control for confounders.
>"Wake up at 4:30am and go for a run" "Bro if youre waking up at 4:30 when are you going to bed" etc
I can't tell which side you're trying to strawman here. What's wrong with running at a normal time?
Its mentality. When told "Tennis is likely to have amazing health benefits", you could respond by saying "Sick, I'll integrate more tennis or sports like it into my life". In fact, one might not respond at all, and just do it. But instead, some people have this bug in their programming where they feel compelled to respond with a variant of "well, ahktually, tennis is popular among rich people so there's confounding factors at play which means you can't actually claim...."
The source of this bug is the same reason why when someone says "I wake up at 4:30am to go on a run", you'll 100% always get someone to respond "adequate sleep also matters, what time are you going to bed, you're missing out on important life events that happen after 8pm" etc. The cardinal sin is jealousy; getting up at 4:30am is hard, playing tennis multiple times a week is hard, the opposing side feels jealousy because they aren't doing something that's hard, so they need to find any way to minimize that hard thing they're doing to feel like equals.
Even you're doing this, and you don't realize it: "What's wrong with running at a normal time?". Nothing at all. Literally, seriously, no one even remotely implied there was anything wrong with running at a normal time. Someone choosing to run at 4:30am does not mean not running at 4:30am is bad; but you think it is. Why? Because it is true that running at 4:30am is harder. Harder doesn't always even mean better, especially when it comes to getting up at 4:30am, but it does definitely mean Harder. So: You minimized their strain by asserting that running at 4:30am is "not normal".
This isn't a university, and you're not a test subject. You're a human, who needs to take care of their body. Arguing about the minutia of the results of some research paper is Mindset; its forest for the trees. Literally, no one who adequately exercises would care that much about studies on tennis which adequately control for confounding factors, because they're too busy actually playing tennis, and they've seen and felt the positive effect it has had on their body and don't need a research paper to tell them its healthy.
(I'm just using tennis as an example here; there's plenty of other sports that follow this vein)
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> But these seem like pretty reasonable arguments? At the very least you should retort with a study that at least tried to control for confounders.
I disagree. The fundamental premise here is that regular exercise has profound health benefits. Tennis is simply one example.
The rebuttals to tennis here ignore the obvious truth -- there are limitless ways to get regular exercise; you just have to have some time and be willing to put some effort in. With very few exceptions there is nobody in the world for whom it's not a realistic goal.
People who simply do not want to can come up with endless excuses to rationalize it.
One can find a reasonable rebuttal for anything. The point is that pattern only emerges over time—this guy hates exercise and has a knee jerk rationalization to suggest any exercise is bad.
I don't know who your friend is but you haven't addressed any of the points made in the posts you're replying to.
We have a saying, something to the tune of: who wants to do something, seeks the ways, who does not want to do it, seeks the reasons why it can't be done. Those points don't need addressing.
But like, tennis is more of a rich person game and also people with health issues do not play tennis. As in, to.do the scientific claim you in fact have to separate these effects
Sure; I would enjoy talking about these confounding factors, on the tennis court after a round.
My point is that it seems like the only people who bring up trivia like "maybe tennis isn't as good for you as you think it is because there's survivors bias in the population of people used to do studies on the sport" are people who never play tennis. Similarly, if you're a runner you've probably multiple times had people say, directly to you, "oh I could never do that to my knees, running is so bad for them!"
You're explaining micro-gravity in orbit to an astronaut [1]. Leave the science and the confounding factor enumeration and the hypothesis to the academics. Just go play tennis.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GY3sO47YYo
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These days they are often repurposed for pickleball in the US.
Then just play pickleball. It's virtually the same thing for the topic at hand.
Yes, that has become a problem for tennis players, but it's a quite recent problem. Before pickleball became popular, though, free public tennis courts were widespread in urban and suburban areas. Perhaps not in rural areas, though I can't speak definitively on that.
It isn't uncommon for farmers to settup something in their barn for whatever sport they like. the maintenance bay has plenty of space for tennis or whatever.
Pickleball nets are often portable and good co use with Tennis courts. That’s what we do
Plus pickleball is popular so you will find more people to play with
Pickleball will not provide high-intensity exercise.
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Never seen a free tennis court in my life. I've seen plenty of paid ones though.
Did every city you lived it had a free golf course as well?
Conversely, as a life-long resident of the U. S, I've never seen a tennis court that required payment to play, and I've seen plenty of tennis courts. I know paid tennis clubs exist, I've just never stepped foot in one.
Now that I think about it, many decades ago I lived in apartment complexes (Indianapolis, as if it makes a difference) that had tennis courts. I don't know if that's a thing anymore or not.
> Now that I think about it, many decades ago I lived in apartment complexes (Indianapolis, as if it makes a difference) that had tennis courts. I don't know if that's a thing anymore or not.
It was very common. That's where I learned how to play. I have no idea how common it is with new apartment construction though.
> Never seen a free tennis court in my life. I've seen plenty of paid ones though.
My neighborhood (California) has free (city-maintained, open to all) tennis courts. Seems pretty common. Also basketball, soccer and bike trails and swimmin g pool.
If you're in the northeast US it's very common to have free or have to pay a nominal fee for public tennis courts (this may depend on the quality of your town's Park and rec department)
In NYC, it's 15/hr or 100/season. In the town I grew up in it's 20/yr for residents and 40/yr for non residents. I'm my current town it's free. And I suspect that there are waivers/discounts for folks that can't pay that amount.