Comment by gethly
21 days ago
> Google will begin to verify the identities of developers distributing their apps on Android devices, not just those who distribute via the Play Store
This is absolutely unacceptable. That's like you having to submit your personal details to Microsoft in order to just run a program on Windows. Absolutely nuts and it will not go as they think it will.
Microsoft will do this. They just have to go a little more slowly than Google or Apple because there's such a long history and expectation of being able to run any apps. But they're gradually working their way there just like Google and Apple.
Starts with scary warnings for unsigned apps (with a workaround), then they start imposing extra restrictions for unsigned apps, and then they make the SmartScreen workaround more difficult to enable (maybe it needs a registry edit), then they'll remove that workaround in certain markets/editions (maybe the Home version first). Finally they'll remove it everywhere.
>But they're gradually working their way there just like Google and Apple.
imagine microsoft having the moral high ground for once
More like baggage that is slowing them down despite their noble intentions.
They don't have higher moral ground, just more constraints.
> will not go as they think it will.
How will it go? Where are people going to go? People who draw a hard line on this can’t go to iOS for more freedom. Linux phones aren’t ready for prime time. So what’s left? Going back to a flip phone that doesn’t even have the capability of running apps in the same class?
Aside from the prospect of bad press and user protest - There are still non Play Protect certified Android phones being released, including a few rare phones that skip the Play Store altogether (including the Fire phones). So they could lose at least a little bit of ground in this area. In a sense, they are in competition with their open source offering, even though they have a lot of control over it these days.
It could also make jailbreaking more commonplace, which on the Android side has died down in recent years because sideloading is enough for most users.
What is the killer app people are sideloading these days? For people to get onboard they need to feel like they are really missing out on something they find valuable. iOS doesn't have sideloading (outside of some TestFlight loopholes), and I don't see anyone is real life talking about it. It's just activists for this kind of thing online.
I don't think the average user feels like they are really missing anything, which makes it a hard sell.
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Android forks. AOSP, GrapheneOS, LineageOS, CalyxOS.
we need more OEM unlockable phones, though. GOS is looking at getting one made, I'm planning to throw money at them to make it happen.
I've gathered that various cell networks won't let me use VoLTE on my unlocked phone with forks. I've been reluctant to install LineageOS because of that.
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You won't be able to use your banking app. Moving to Apple is the only logical step.
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I'm going to be buying Apple from now on. If I have no choice and I have to be in a walled garden, I'm going with the best dammed walled garden on the market.
This isn't even going to be some sort of an ideological decision. It's simply the intelligent choice.
China has a whole slew of more advaced phones than we have here. They just can't export them to us because 'IP' and other 'security' restrictions.
Isn't it basically the same requirement as Apple enforces for iOS? If you want to build an iOS app which other users can install, you must register (and pay).
It's a step of questionable utility, and I suspect it comes from requirements of (not exactly freedom-loving) governments of Brazil, Malaysia, and Singapore, where the demand for registration will be enforced first. Maybe it will even remain geographically limited.
The article is very light on details. Crucially, it lacks any links to actual Google documents.
> Isn't it basically the same requirement as Apple enforces for iOS?
Yes, which is why it's bad.
Ultimately it’s them that has market power.
To meaningfully challenge it, developers need to agree to withheld supply like a cartel (illegal?) or union.
I think it’s probably close to the union scenario in an industry with a single employer, as there is that one too many relationship (all developers vs Google). Whereas a cartel is a few suppliers conspiring against all consumers.
I’m not sure developers would go to those lengths, and I’m not sure it would work either as the benefit is too high from defecting from such a coalition.
It's not illegal to not release your software on a platform. But the mobile market is so top-heavy on both the apps and the games side, that without a few key developers - Meta, ByteDance, Tencent, etc your union is dead in the water - and the top 1% of developers would very much like to more friction for new developers, not less.
If Apple or Google convinced a court you formed a cartel then that's the end of the story. Whether it's a cartel in the eyes in the public would be irrelevant.
They did it the right way for a very long time and yet people keep buying iPhones, I think I would do the same if I were them, users clearly don't seem to care about openness and freedom to use their devices however they want. I mean, people care about the color of archaic text messages. There is nothing to save.
Why would they do something to hurt the customers that stick with them, just to spite the ones that don't?
Android has like 70-80% global market share.
And none of that (sadly) is about openness. It's about price. The iOS share of mobile spending is basically the inverse: ~70% iOS, ~30% Android.
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iOS market share: 56% in Australia (where I live) [1]; 58% in United States [2]; 47% in UK [3]; 64% in Japan [4]; 60% in Canada [5]; 55% in Denmark [6]; 54% in Switzerland [7]; 55% in Sweden [8].
Yes, I've cherry picked from the minority of countries with near or over half iOS market share. But, they're all high GDP countries with a very valuable customer base. Apple and Google care about these markets, they don't care about global market share.
[1] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/australia [2] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/united-sta... [3] https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile/united... [4] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/japan [5] https://gs.statcounter.com/vendor-market-share/mobile/canada [6] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/denmark [7] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/switzerlan... [8] https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/mobile/sweden
The nice thing about Windows is that you don't have to. You will need to pay a couple hundred dollars for a certificate and have the first couple hundred people who open your signed executable click through your warnings though.
Yes, you can turn off smartscreen (for now) but opening random executables is getting harder and harder.
>Absolutely nuts and it will not go as they think it will.
Apple will disagree and the first company doing worst than this, and is the world's first trillion dollars company.
Money talks.
Ah, then it would be acceptable if an independent third party who does not share data with Google other than Boolean yes/no was used to do this. I expect that’s their long-term plan anyways, to defuse the predictable backlash and externalize the problem and liabilities altogether, once the initial ID harvesting is done.
I think google has incentive to get that data for themselves so they won’t give that up.
One of those would be in corrupt countries you don’t have the „trusted 3rd party”
Uh, you kind of already do if you don't want to get the scary "unknown publisher" thing, which hides the "yes, I really want to install it" inside the "more info" box. Not even the decency of an "advanced" button.
Installer software signing certificates that will satisfy MS are prohibitively expensive for hobbyists (hundreds per year).
While this did funnel countless FOSS and commercial developers to pay MS for certificates, it didn't close even 50% of loopholes. You can still execute third party software from your own (e.g. Steam launching games you install with it). You can also use interpreters, JVM and other ways to disregard the requirement.
If fact, the reason why MS can charge for "nearly mandatory" executable signing is because it is not mandatory at all. If they really were forced to close loopholes, they would have made it free for everyone, — just like Let's Encrypt was made free of charge to establish mandatory encryption across the Web.
Android is much more secure than windows (its architecture was developed decades later from learned lessons)
So yeah, its different and more aecure
Their comparison to airport security is apt. The US considers airports “constitution free zones”, and apparently they think the same of phones now too.
Cutting through the excuses, this is just another step in converting the US from a democracy to a fascist dictatorship.
Want to write software?
Papers please.
Yeah, it's like we've given up. Between third-party doctrine, border enforcement being excluded from 4th amendment protections, and 100-mile zones around international airports being considered "the border", it's like there's no place left where the constitution applies. How did we forget why we made these rules in the first place? It's not like the risks are smaller today than they were 250 years ago...
I'm not sure it's so much that we forgot why we made them, it's that we forgot we need to maintain and enforce them and they won't somehow automatically prevent oppression just by being written down on a piece of paper in the national archives.
And the rest of the country as well now. The highest authority is threatening municipalities with military takeover.
Corporations are reading the room and pulling out any hostile tactic they've kept in their back pocket waiting for an occasion like this.
This is only the beginning with digital IDs. It's absolutely going to get worse and all of human history is available as evidence to what occurs with unchecked power.
USA was a democratic country just less than a year ago. Are there constitutional ways to remove a bad actor or a traitor from the power?
It looks like pattern there is that a some powerful guy or company just removes rights and freedoms we had by small pieces. Those small pieces are not worth to fight for, until frog is boiled alive.
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Someone create a website to emulate apk!
With the latest W11 updates, how far are we away from that?
I mean if you want to avoid smartscreen BS you already need to sign your Windows executables with EV code signing cert that is not cheap and issued only to registered businesses sooo...
Why would it not go as they think it will? The big guy always wins against the little guy. The fact they make this move suggest they know it is a sure bet.
Doesn't macOs also requires this when you use stuff like keychain in apps? I remember signing my flutter macOS app with my info using xcode.
wont it just open the door for alternatives? linux on pc and ??? on mobile?
Microsoft is trillionaire company and still failed to do that
lets that sink it on how hard to make ecosystem
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> Come on. Go back to a flip phone, or make your own smartphone ecosystem. The entitlement is outrageous.
This response is unreasonable. If I'm purchasing a piece of hardware, it's not outrageous that I want to be able to compile and run software on it without asking for permission. Suggesting that I instead create my own smartphone ecosystem is absurd.
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Just build your own smartphone empire lol
That’s exactly my point. You want it done the way you want it, and complain you want more. Seriously, the entitlement. It’s like this because you chose this path. DOn’t use the phone and they’ll change course. But you whine and whine and use it anyway. It’s your fault.
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The wild west is on the play store and the app store right now, Google and Apple get most of their money from casino game apps stealing from users.
And both companies don't do anything about it because they are loaded with money from those scams.
Give me a break, it's never been about security.
>Come on. Go back to a flip phone, or make your own smartphone ecosystem. The entitlement is outrageous.
No it isn't. It's perfectly reasonable. It's my device, bought with my money, earned on my time. I didn't agree to a social contract. I bought a tool. And you're a fool if you think
>but it's the current year!
is an argument. This isn't happening because the technological cosmos demands it. It's happening because google is winding up for a monopolistic hold of the market. They seek to manipulate it for their private benefit at the expense of everyone else. If they actually push through with this, they will be broken up.
You do realize windows already does this right?
Sounds like you haven't used an Android. What Windows does is the exact same as what Android currently does, showing lots of warning screens. Which is very different from banning them altogether.
Can you explain in what way Windows already does this?
If an executable isn't code-signed, Windows SmartScreen displays a big scary "This file may harm your computer" warning box, requiring multiple clicks to get past. Been like that for years.
Code-signing certs used to be very expensive and annoying to obtain. The situation has improved a lot since the launch of Azure Trusted Signing, and now it's roughly on par with the cost and annoyance level of code-signing for Mac binaries.
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So long as they don't make it very hard to get an ID approval, I don't see why people shouldn't know who developed an app.
Currently the entire ecosystem is riddled with malware, spyware, or adware with shady source information and people have no way to verify the data practices