Unless it's de facto illegal, payment processors should be business agnostic. You can make arguments that it's their platform, their business, they can do whatever they want - but that goes for insurance companies and everyone else we want to act neutrally.
If that's the case, then you have to 1) reduce requirements on the payment processors to do due diligence and/or 2) push handling of risks associated with payments elsewhere.
As others have mentioned, what evidence of risk is there between a normal game purchased on Steam, versus an adult game, purchased on Steam?
Steam has a specific return policy that it applies everywhere, the games don't show up on card statements, and Steam will lock your entire account for charging back.
If there's a secret epidemic of people making new accounts specifically to buy and chargeback on adult games, the solution is for the processor to pressure Steam to take measures to reduce fradulent chargebacks (e.g. through minimum account age requirements for adult games), not to censor the platform.
Certain types of transactions come with different types of risk... one might reasonably assume that X-rated games fall into the "frequently fraudulent" category
>one might reasonably assume that X-rated games fall into the "frequently fraudulent" category
There was no such evidence presented, all the evidence was that some christian extremists complained.
Sure your wife might see that you have a payment to pornhub and might not like it but you will not get on your credit card report the name of the game you bought from Steam or GOG so this fake excuse does not work like it would have worked with adult sites subscriptions.
But if there is evidence for Steam and GOG let me know, if somehow I missed the news and the chritian extemists were not the one that pressured VISA then also let me know.
The entire giftcard industry operates with these payment networks just fine despite large chargeback percentages that come from literal stolen credit cards
If the claim that "higher chargeback risk" like that cut you off from the payment networks were true, you would not be able to buy gift cards with credit cards.
I don’t think they should ban anything that not actually illegal in the first place. But ya if they’re going to “try to protect the kids” at least go for the obvious issues. Then again they don’t actually care about the kids haha.
This is classic "whataboutism". "What about guns or violence?"
Maybe they will next, maybe not. What does that have to do with them taking this first step?
We have to evaluate the merit of this action, on its own.
Personally, I think that opening Steam's "New and Upcoming" and seeing nothing but low-quality porn games is bad. Bad for steam, bad for gamers, and bad for children.
Personally, I think that opening Steam's "New and Upcoming" and seeing nothing but low-quality porn games is bad.
Is this something that happens when you have a registered account? I don't have a Steam account. I opened https://store.steampowered.com/explore/upcoming/ in a private browser window and I see only one one game out of 20 tagged with "Nudity" / "Sexual content".
Payment processors demonstrated that they can, with a handful of keystrokes, destroy any industry they dislike.
I don't think it's "whataboutism" to ask why they don't do something that helps society with that power instead of using it to censor art they find personally distasteful.
Seems overly protective, and possibly a bit ridiculous depending on your sensibilities, if thought through.
By similar logic supermarkets should not carry alcohol or tobacco, theaters cannot show 18+ movies (even non-explicit ones), and entire parts of some cities need to be redone because of their red-light districts, because there are some at central locations a kid could reasonably stumble into.
I think just restricting access to this stuff, being discreet about it, and maybe limiting advertisement, is enough.
I've lived somewhere with a pretty plainly visible red-light district close to the central train station, yet most people don't even realize it is there.
I'd hope something similar could be accomplished for Steam as well.
Finally, at the end of the day parents gotta parent.
Hot take, but parents should, y'know, parent. Steam offers parental controls which can disable the store entirely, and have a whitelist for which games can be played along with other features.
I can tell you're not a parent, because if you were, you would know that basically none of the digital solutions provided by tech companies to facilitate gating adult material from children actually work or are in any way thoughtfully designed.
Every one of these "just shunt the responsibility from the giant corporation with infinite resources to the parents who are already stretched thin" is another link in a long, long chain that is the woes of modern parenting and really in the woes of modern life, in general.
Historically we have typically gated adult content from children via opt-in systems, not opt-out systems, like you're describing - e.g. Adults opt-in to sensitive content, not children opt-out. There is a reason adult stores are separate from Walmarts and that 21+ bars are separate from family-restaurants.
Also these games are absolute garbage, so I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on this issue like we're losing something of significant cultural value... Why is low-quality XXX-slop the line in the sand we're deciding to rally around... This is not a slippery slope to fascism, or whatever make-believe story we're peddling about this situation, its somebody somewhere doing the right thing, for once, and slowing our seemingly inevitable decline into Biff's Casino Future the teensiest bit.
If you're in the UK there is a parliament.uk petition to "Ban payment processors stopping services based on objections to legal content": https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/734441
Unless it's de facto illegal, payment processors should be business agnostic. You can make arguments that it's their platform, their business, they can do whatever they want - but that goes for insurance companies and everyone else we want to act neutrally.
If that's the case, then you have to 1) reduce requirements on the payment processors to do due diligence and/or 2) push handling of risks associated with payments elsewhere.
As others have mentioned, what evidence of risk is there between a normal game purchased on Steam, versus an adult game, purchased on Steam?
Steam has a specific return policy that it applies everywhere, the games don't show up on card statements, and Steam will lock your entire account for charging back.
If there's a secret epidemic of people making new accounts specifically to buy and chargeback on adult games, the solution is for the processor to pressure Steam to take measures to reduce fradulent chargebacks (e.g. through minimum account age requirements for adult games), not to censor the platform.
Certain types of transactions come with different types of risk... one might reasonably assume that X-rated games fall into the "frequently fraudulent" category
>one might reasonably assume that X-rated games fall into the "frequently fraudulent" category
There was no such evidence presented, all the evidence was that some christian extremists complained.
Sure your wife might see that you have a payment to pornhub and might not like it but you will not get on your credit card report the name of the game you bought from Steam or GOG so this fake excuse does not work like it would have worked with adult sites subscriptions.
But if there is evidence for Steam and GOG let me know, if somehow I missed the news and the chritian extemists were not the one that pressured VISA then also let me know.
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This has always been a lie.
The entire giftcard industry operates with these payment networks just fine despite large chargeback percentages that come from literal stolen credit cards
If the claim that "higher chargeback risk" like that cut you off from the payment networks were true, you would not be able to buy gift cards with credit cards.
1 reply →
Why would anyone assume that these are frequently fraudulent, especially within a managed platform like Steam?
When Fandango at Home sells you the movie Shortbus is it more likely to be a fraudulent transaction than when they sell you Shrek?
1 reply →
If the payment processors really cared about children, they would be banning companies that sell guns, not video games with boobs in them.
I don’t think they should ban anything that not actually illegal in the first place. But ya if they’re going to “try to protect the kids” at least go for the obvious issues. Then again they don’t actually care about the kids haha.
This is classic "whataboutism". "What about guns or violence?"
Maybe they will next, maybe not. What does that have to do with them taking this first step? We have to evaluate the merit of this action, on its own.
Personally, I think that opening Steam's "New and Upcoming" and seeing nothing but low-quality porn games is bad. Bad for steam, bad for gamers, and bad for children.
Personally, I think that opening Steam's "New and Upcoming" and seeing nothing but low-quality porn games is bad.
Is this something that happens when you have a registered account? I don't have a Steam account. I opened https://store.steampowered.com/explore/upcoming/ in a private browser window and I see only one one game out of 20 tagged with "Nudity" / "Sexual content".
Payment processors demonstrated that they can, with a handful of keystrokes, destroy any industry they dislike.
I don't think it's "whataboutism" to ask why they don't do something that helps society with that power instead of using it to censor art they find personally distasteful.
1 reply →
I'm not seeing this on my steam feed. Are you?
GOG is also starting to need a "no porn" filter, though I haven't used Steam, so I don't know how they compare on that.
Is this any different than the previous takes and discussions 2 months ago?
Against the censorship of adult content by payment processors
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44676559
(you included a double link)
and yes the censorship is slowly showing its effects:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/valve-appear-to-be-blocking...
https://www.gamespot.com/articles/steam-is-no-longer-allowin...
https://www.eurogamer.net/queer-developers-speak-out-as-adul...
Hot take, but Steam, a platform used by millions of children, should not have adult games.
Seems overly protective, and possibly a bit ridiculous depending on your sensibilities, if thought through.
By similar logic supermarkets should not carry alcohol or tobacco, theaters cannot show 18+ movies (even non-explicit ones), and entire parts of some cities need to be redone because of their red-light districts, because there are some at central locations a kid could reasonably stumble into.
I think just restricting access to this stuff, being discreet about it, and maybe limiting advertisement, is enough. I've lived somewhere with a pretty plainly visible red-light district close to the central train station, yet most people don't even realize it is there. I'd hope something similar could be accomplished for Steam as well.
Finally, at the end of the day parents gotta parent.
I can buy all manner of smut, boner pills, and dildos from Amazon.
You can buy Nicki Minaj and Lil Wayne albums on iTunes containing very illicit lyrics and adult themes.
Hot take, but parents should, y'know, parent. Steam offers parental controls which can disable the store entirely, and have a whitelist for which games can be played along with other features.
I can tell you're not a parent, because if you were, you would know that basically none of the digital solutions provided by tech companies to facilitate gating adult material from children actually work or are in any way thoughtfully designed.
Every one of these "just shunt the responsibility from the giant corporation with infinite resources to the parents who are already stretched thin" is another link in a long, long chain that is the woes of modern parenting and really in the woes of modern life, in general.
Historically we have typically gated adult content from children via opt-in systems, not opt-out systems, like you're describing - e.g. Adults opt-in to sensitive content, not children opt-out. There is a reason adult stores are separate from Walmarts and that 21+ bars are separate from family-restaurants.
Also these games are absolute garbage, so I'm not sure why everyone is jumping on this issue like we're losing something of significant cultural value... Why is low-quality XXX-slop the line in the sand we're deciding to rally around... This is not a slippery slope to fascism, or whatever make-believe story we're peddling about this situation, its somebody somewhere doing the right thing, for once, and slowing our seemingly inevitable decline into Biff's Casino Future the teensiest bit.
2 replies →
What is your justification for this position? How does this not reduce to "steam shouldn't sell games that aren't fit for toddlers"?
Children shouldn't be exposed to pornographic material until an appropriate age.
The same way that a speed limit, age of consent, or drinking age doesn't get reduced to nobody can drive, have sex, or drink.
Hot take but adults have the inviolable right to get adult content, whether it appeals to you or not
No disagreement