Comment by uncircle
1 day ago
I’ve been wondering the same thing about meditation: it is “known” that is is good for you in the long-term, but I wonder if spending time focused on a point in your mind is a very good idea for people that spend a lot of time stuck in their own minds and thoughts. In periods of solitude, I’ve found meditation to increase feelings of depersonalisation and solipsism, that I can easily imagine could precipitate into psychosis for some people. I don’t do much of it any more, and for people like me, I believe physical exercise to be a much better counterweight to too much thinking.
We push these one-size-fits-all suggestions, but we are never told who have they modeled from; not everybody is the same, and our minds are even more diverse than our biology.
Also, re: running on autopilot: the goal of mindfulness is to be aware of every waking moment, yet our biology is very much tuned to running on autopilot because it is so much more efficient and frees CPU time for higher processing—you don’t want to be focusing on every muscle when you walk now, do you? Is it such a great idea to overrule our energy conservation protocols our brains depend upon?
(Sorry for the off-topic, your comment was too interesting)
Interesting perspective on meditation. I was fortunate enough to have had good teachers through the Cambridge Insight Meditation Center and the Insight Meditation Society. As you would expect, my experience differs from what you described.
In my opinion, breath-focused meditation is not thinking. It is being aware of the physical sensations of breathing and being aware of emotions and thoughts that arrive, but not engaging with them. Breath awareness and letting thoughts and emotions come into your mind is the easy part. Not engaging with them is the tricky part.
You are right to point out that suggestions like meditation are not one-size-fits-all. Some people aren't ready to commit to the changes meditation brings about, just as others are not ready to undertake weight loss or personal improvement. No blame. When you're ready, the practice will be there.
RE: Running on autopilot. Yes, there are parts of the body that need to function on autopilot, such as breathing and heartbeat. I appreciate that my stomach and intestines run on autopilot. At the same time, I think running on autopilot is dangerous because that is what gets hijacked by social media and misled by advertising. It's why you miss a turn and drive the way you always drove and why you write down the wrong date when the year changes. I consider running an automatic as a possible reason why using AI "makes people stupider."
Meditation (walking, breath, flame) taps into a semi-universal part of the brain, below the level of consciousness, and provides a mechanism for reducing brain chaos, also known as the monkey mind. In my experience, developing the skill of reducing monkey mind-generated chaos becomes a semi-automatic process reinforced through daily meditation practice.
Most mindfulness practices focus on being aware of your body and mind at a low level all the time. It's not an active engagement; it's simply being aware. The monkey mind burns a lot of cycles, and I would rather spend those cycles being aware of the monkey mind triggers and not engaging with them.
You doing so much studying of meditation and not knowing any of its documented downsides is worrisome.
Most actual white papers discourage the use of meditation. Risks of suicide, depersonalization, desocialisation, and loop thinkings are very real.
You are right that there are individuals who should not practice meditation. From what I've read, it's usually people with severe mental illness who are already predisposed to suicide, depersonalization, etc. It gets worse if you practice on your own without community. Having a teacher and fellow practitioners helps achieve balance, equanimity, and kindness to yourself and others.
I started meditation practice before I was diagnosed with a mood disorder. I was fortunate to have a teacher who is also a practicing psychologist. After diagnosis, meditation provided me with the strength to withstand the emotional storms that medication trials put me through.
My psychologist and a teacher taught me one of the basic techniques for dealing with complex reactions or feelings that might arise. The practice that worked was sitting with the feelings/emotions/thoughts. Let them hang out in your mind, and every time you engage, stop, disconnect from them, and then start again. Initially, the cycle lasts about three minutes. I learned how to recognize when it was too much, to take a break, and be kind to myself. With practice, those uncomfortable feelings and thoughts gradually fade to the point where they are no longer intrusive as often.
All that said, I don't want to minimize the issue of suicide. I've had brushes with it and survived. I had a brother who didn't. His death has left me with many feelings that don't respond to rational thought and analysis. All I can do is sit with them and not engage.
There are many kinds of meditation. I'm not sure what kind you're describing, but the way I've learned it is to not be focused on any one thing, but to let thoughts arise and pass without clinging to them or trying to push them away. The effect it's had on my own thinking is to have a better relationship with my brain. I'm less reactive and find myself ruminating a lot less.
There are still dangers here from what I understand. Those with trauma can have past events pop up unexpectedly and have, undertandably, negative reactions. Most medtiation teachers recommend seeing a professional for guidance for people like this.
While you clearly didn't benefit from whatever kind of meditation you were doing you may find that other kinds of meditation help you with the very problems you're identifying. Or not. Many (most?) people live fulfilling lives without ever meditating.
That said, I think most people benefit from physical activity. Note that I don't say exercise, I think the latter is great - I row almost daily in addition to doing calisthenics, working my kettlebells, etc. - but I think modern culture and the fitness industry have conflated physical activity and exercise.
Regardless, I'm glad you found something that works for you and that you didn't continue to force a path on yourself that clearly wasn't working. I think this kind of self-awarness and adjustment is important.
> We push these one-size-fits-all suggestions, but we are never told who have they modeled from; not everybody is the same, and our minds are even more diverse than our biology.
You say that right after saying that phsyical exercise might be more for you. The modern one-size-fits all solution par excellence.
And exercise is not overrated. Like with meditation: you have to know what you are doing.
> Also, re: running on autopilot: the goal of mindfulness is to be aware of every waking moment, yet our biology is very much tuned to running on autopilot because it is so much more efficient and frees CPU time for higher processing—you don’t want to be focusing on every muscle when you walk now, do you? Is it such a great idea to overrule our energy conservation protocols our brains depend upon?
Do you call the constant idle mind-chatter and distractability of the not-mindful person “feeing up CPU time” (of course with the PC talk)? On what grounds?