Comment by RajT88
1 month ago
Other commenters are right, but I'll point out another fallacy you're pushing here.
The current situation is like somebody commits a murder. Then the community rounds up a posse and goes out to kill the murderer. Then kill the murder's family, their neighbors, the residents of the next neighborhood over, raze the neighborhoods and then take all the land for themselves.
Justice means penalizing the guilty parties, not everyone in their geographical/social group. Your definition of Justice is leaky.
But isn't that what Hamas did? Broke into homes and burned babies to death? Beheaded people? Pulled fetuses from pregnant women? Shoot up clinics and murder the entire staff and patients?
Nothing Hamas has done justifies what Israel is doing to Palestinian civilians, because collective punishment is a war crime. "But they did it first" is not a valid excuse, especially when trying to excuse mass starvation and bombing population centers.
Under 60 000 British died during the Bliz.
350 000 to 500 000 Germans died in allied bombing.
Did the Germans become the good guys when the German civilian death toll exceeded the UK death toll?
Or even just when US got involved since Germany hadn't attacked US civilians?
No?
Is it collective punishment or just really difficult to successful take down terrorists, destroy their weapons, and free hostages when they hide among civilians in a highly dense place? How would you suggest a country like Israel could definitely put an end to Hamas so their citizens are not experiencing risk? And how do you separate the “civilians” from Hamas when they voted for Hamas, support them today, and so on, knowing full well what their goals are (religious supremacy and genocide)?
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Taking your post at face value (which nobody should), the argument would be to punish Hamas, and not run around shooting children in the head, or setting up snipers near hospitals or UN Aid stations - both things which are confirmed by foreign doctors and aid workers.
> Taking your post at face value (which nobody should),
The crimes of Hamas are well documented, not only by Israel who admittedly might have some bias, but also by several in the OSINT community before Hamas realized their mistake and started deleting.
You questioning it only tells us you don't know much about what happened.
> the argument would be to punish Hamas, and not run around shooting children in the head,
Exactly like we dealt with the nazis and not a single child was hurt, right?
Or maybe take "war 101" and "war 201" and learn a thing or two about both why the laws of war explicitly bans using civilians as shields and also explicitly point out that human shields can be ignored. (Yes, it does. Feel free to look it up, and as homework, consider why the laws of war points this out ao explicitly. Here is a link, I don't expect you to have tje laws of war bookmarked: https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/ihl-treaties/api-1977/arti...)
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> Broke into homes and burned babies to death? Beheaded people? Pulled fetuses from pregnant women?
It's important to note that these things never happened, and you're still repeating them years later. The only baby that died on 10/7 was a 10 month old hit by crossfire.
I have no idea of the third, and though I feel sure it's wrong judging by the rest of what you have said, I feel obligated to check. Try it.
You are invited to read about it yourself:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181
There are videos made by the Hamas attackers on October 7, using their own cellphones. There are recordings of cell phone calls by the same terrorists: "Dad? I killed a f**g jew just now!".
I personally know two women who had their baby babies burned to death. I know them personally. Whoever told you that was lying to you.
I suggest you seek out more information. Frankly this is not even under debate - there are videos from Hamas and from Gazans showing what happened. There are surveillance cameras showing them setting shelters on fire with children inside. Grenades thrown into living rooms with families. Dead women paraded around naked in the streets of Gaza (how did their clothes come off?)? Female hostages with blood on their crotch (hint: rape).
There are videos.
Not only collected by Israel but also by the wider OSINT community.
Hamas is a terrorist organization. IDF is a state-sponsored military force.
I expect those two categories to behave differently from one another. Do you?
Yes, and they are. If Israel really wanted to just commit a genocide or specifically target civilians, they would have been able to act much more quickly and cause a lot more collateral damage. Is there really any doubt about this? They could have literally leveled the entire city with a munitions from air.
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Obviously.
And that is also what we see.
When did IDF try to outdo the rape of Nanking?
When did Hamas follow the laws of war ever so slightly?
Getting away from the debate around your details (most of which didn't happen) ...
A singular terrorist event is not the same as an multi-decade occupation, on-going theft of land, discrimination, annexation plans, and - not least - a 2 year long genocide of tens of thousands of civilians.
So, no, that isn't what Hamas did.
Even the BBC, a generally anti-Israel organization, has reported on it:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67629181
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This has not been a single terrorist event. Hamas has been shooting rockets at us for almost two decades before the October 7th attacks. They are still shooting rockets at us, some have fallen yesterday and today. And I'm not even talking about the rockets shot at us from other Muslim nations, such as Yemen, that just proves that this is a Muslim against Jewish war and not an Israel against Hamas war. 19 Israelis were injured in a rocket attack from Yemen yesterday.
And how could you oppose both the occupation and annexation plans? Annexation is an end to occupation, no? I also think that the occupation has been going on for far too long, though I fault UNRWA and the PA for that as much as I fault Israel.
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> Justice means penalizing the guilty parties, not everyone in their geographical/social group. Your definition of Justice is leaky.
I disagree. Your definition of justice inadvertently prevents justice. Holding Hamas accountable for the thousands of rocket attacks and the mass murder / mutilation / rape of October 7 means hunting down all of them, getting rid of their weapons, and freeing hostages. You can only do so with some degree of collateral damage since they’re hiding in civilian populations.
But also, “civilian” is debatable. It’s this same population that voted for Hamas despite their charter explicitly calling for religious genocide. It’s the same population that supports Hamas even after the mass murder / mutilation / rape of October 7, according to multiple polls. It’s the same population that has so many times turned a blind eye to the actions of Hamas.
You mean like we did with Germany?
Obviously if the nazis and hamas had come out and surrendered we wouldn't have had to.
But sometimes one has to take out evil. Be it nazis in Berlin or Hamas in Gaza.
And it also serves as a lesson. A lesson certain countries might soon have to learn the hard way:
don't vote for evil, and if you did, don't be the ones who line the streets to cheer for them like Germans and Gazans did.