Comment by pron

> Political Zionism means the sort of Jewish state (a racial state) in a way that racists in England want an "English" state (which means "white")

For some who identify with it, yes, it means that and for others it means something completely different: a political entity that ensures a national home for Jews. In the early days of political Zionism, still in the age of empires, what they had in mind was some sort of autonomy within the Ottoman Empire.

> In Israel "...only Jews have the right to self determination "

Yes. In many countries (e.g., in America) no ethnic group has a stated right for self-determination. In the UK, it's accepted that Scotland may withdraw from the union and obtain self-determination through some process. But yeah, it's definitely a problem.

> that the people who established Israel after WWII were brutalised survivors and they brought that brutality to bear in the process of state creation, but they remain racist genocidal thugs practicing apartheid

I have no reason to believe that Israelis are any more or less statistically racist than people in other countries. The problem in Israel is not some old ideology that is largely anachronistic, but that the country has, indeed, established apartheid and that it's massacring Palestinians. The past experience of the minority of Israeli Jews with ancestry in Europe that escaped from the holocaust (BTW, those who established Israel got there long before WW2) or the majority with ancestry in the Middle East that escaped Arab nationalism is similarly irrelevant. Their crimes are just crimes.

The way I see it, there are two barbaric, bloodthirsty tribes living on that land, both currently led by illiberal, nationalistic, and increasingly religious-fundamentalist leaders, so while, as a leftist, I can obviously support neither leadership, Israel is guilty of apartheid and horrendous war crimes. I'm not optimistic. At this point my gut says that instead of fighting off British colonialism, they should have begged us to stay. The American colonies aren't doing so well, either.

And yes, I also hate how the Israeli government claims to represent all Jews. Going by the polls, they might not even represent a majority of Israeli Jews. But that's the new fascism. I'm mostly terrified of it making its way to the UK.