Comment by anilgulecha
15 days ago
F-droid has been stellar in steering the alternative app store environment over the past 15 years or so, and I'd heed their call on this.
A small call to any googler on the thread - put your support towards this internally. I understand the internal dynamics, and it may seem current option is best amongst imperfect choices, but in this case F-droid is right in that closing out anonymous (but good) software is a line crossed with peril for any open ecosystem. Today it's play store, tomorrow it will be the web, and that will have a significant negative impact on Google.
> A small call to any googler on the thread - put your support towards this internally.
Post author here. This.
Google toyed with a scheme like this a few years ago and reached out to F-Droid, and they were told the chaos it would cause. They backed off. This time, no one has deigned to contact us.
Anyone who wants to talk can reach out to us (board@f-droid.org) or me directly (Signal contact in my profile).
I pinged Sameer Samat for you, hope he will reach out. https://x.com/ArtemR/status/1973050998424784953
https://x.com/ssamat/status/1973223167473885451
!!
Happy this was setup. Fingers crossed.
"A small call to any Googler"
Do you think any single one remained who cares over their payment, stock options, office perks? They care about not getting laid off with the next wave.
The context is I've worked at Google, and internally was surrounded by many who do care. I also saw other sides of controversial calls - business and other considerations which are not apparent publicly. But one thing Google does well internally way more than others is listen to it's engineers' opinion.
I'm curious when this was, if you don't mind saying. (I have a small hobby of trying to figure out Google culture over the years.)
They still exist, I know a few. Most of them are busy protesting Google taking over Microsoft's contract to provide surveillance and targeting information in Gaza, but I can ask about this issue.
Like any other large corporation, Google has selected for compliant employees over all else. It's more akin to a bureaucracy than a startup now.
...and fatalistic attitudes like this are what erode our freedoms imo. if we don't try, then what?
Then we post on the Internet about how doomed we all are. Keep up!
"Best among the imperfect choices"?
What's wrong about the current situation? Why imperfect?
I have had Android phones starting from G1, and never had any problems with them, that I could install any APK that I wished on my own hardware. There's nothing imperfect for me, as a user. What's "imperfect" is that there are apps like ReVanced and PipePipe that deprive Google of the advertising revenue. But that's imperfect for Google, and perfect for the user. Just charge me 30 bucks for Android OS instead.
Spreadsheets are a fundamentally important tool—the original "killer app" for personal computers such as cellphones, and the best way that has been found so far to put computational power in the hands of end-users. Last I checked, there was no spreadsheet in F-Droid, largely because it's a relatively small ecosystem, and most Android users still aren't using F-Droid. Instead they are subjected to the outrageously abusive apps that fill the Play Store, as described for example in https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45411897. And many Android phones ship with non-uninstallable malware and shovelware. Backing up an Android phone without a Google account—indeed, even activating an Android phone without a Goolge account—is challenging. From my point of view, these are imperfections.
> Spreadsheets are a fundamentally important tool
It's nice to know that you use spreadsheets all the time.
I use them rarely, and often end up regretting that I didn't write a real program instead. And I'd definitely never see myself using one on a phone; it's too painful to type, and the screen is usually too small.
I'd guess that maybe one percent of mobile phone users have spreadsheets of any kind installed, or would want them. Maybe.
What I'm getting at here is that you seem to have a pretty skewed idea of "fundamentally important".
Admittedly an awful lot of mobile users do have a lot of game and eye candy apps that have no F-Droid counterparts. And some users have professional apps that also don't have F-Droid counterparts. But spreadsheets aren't the center of the Universe.
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> Spreadsheets are a fundamentally important tool—the original "killer app" for personal computers such as cellphones
I do not agree with your supposition. Like the parent using the G1 as I did (and still have it), never used a spreadsheet app on any of my many, many phones both personal and work. I am/was a systems engineer by trade.
> Last I checked, there was no spreadsheet in F-Droid
The most popular viewer is the LibreOffice one[1], which can handle ODS and XLS (amongst many others) formats. You may have meant editing/creating which I agree they're not around. See item (1) above though.
> largely because it's a relatively small ecosystem, and most Android users still aren't using F-Droid
Or possibly, a large number of users simply do not need or use generic spreadsheet apps on their mobile devices, which is why I disagree with your opening statement as I am a direct counterexample.
[1] https://f-droid.org/en/packages/at.tomtasche.reader/
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> Backing up an Android phone without a Google account (...) is challenging
Off topic, but I think it's impossible, rather than challenging?
Unless, maybe, if you clone the phone to another physical phone?
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Oh, you opened a can of worms... In terms of user experience Android is garbage. It forces on you features you cannot remove unless you break into the system (which is kinda illegal or, at a minimum, voids your warranty).
Stuff like "do not disturb" that turns on accidentally and makes me miss calls, and is impossible to remove. It's impossible to remove a bunch of trash from the lock screen, and with some workarounds sometimes only the picture is removed, but it stays interactive or affects other widgets, like the audio player, for instance. Lockscreen randomly trying to dial random numbers, especially if I don't answer an incoming call. Also, taking screenshots randomly, so after almost every run I have to spend some time deleting these screenshots.
Now, when it comes to the subject in OP, it's not really about Android, it's about Google's policies around developers and app store. The whole idea behind Android is very similar to MS Windows: oppress the user because the system provider "knows better". Make choices on user's behalf, prevent users doing from useful things jut to blanket "secure" them from some imaginary threat. Manipulate users into doing a thing that's harmful for them, but beneficial for the system provider.
So, the app store managed by Google is one example of such policies. Google doesn't have the best interest of the user in mind. They are maliciously complying with regulations that want them not to abuse their users. They check the applications submitted to the app store, but they check them for the wrong things. Just to say they did.
I ended up using an FTP server app from F-Droid and a file manager from F-Droid because the stuff that was available for the same functionality found in app store is some atrocious predatory trash. It doesn't matter if I can afford to buy an app. Whatever I tried was just garbage. Once you get used to freedom and the approach of free software after you've spent some time with eg. Linux, using Android will make your blood boil because of how hostile both the system and the programs written for it are.
A bit of devil's advocate here but the current situation is that there's sideloadable malware around.
As well as malware, and millions of apps that will syphon every data they possibly can, on the Play Store
> closing out anonymous (but good) software
I don’t think we should be framing their new rules like this. They are closing out F-Droid, which is not anonymous, due to a technicality of their implementation. At best, they are collateral damage. At worst, it is malicious compliance in response to a directive that was supposed to ensure their continued existence.
It's f-droid that's clearly calling this out. from the post:
>The F-Droid project cannot require that developers register their apps through Google, but at the same time, we cannot “take over” the application identifiers for the open-source apps we distribute, as that would effectively seize exclusive distribution rights to those applications
F-droid does not want to take responsibility for the app.
> F-droid does not want to take responsibility for the app.
That's not how I read it. They cannot "take over" exclusive control of application identifiers, that's all. For example, this would prevent a developer publishing the same app to both F-Droid and to the Google Play Store. I see nothing that says that they aren't willing to take responsibility for what they publish.
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