Comment by CJefferson
3 days ago
This is cool, I hope it gets finished, and Microsoft Can help if required.
I love WSL2, I basically live in it. I need Office, and working laptops, too much to go full time Linux, and I want to be able to play games so I don’t want a Mac (yes I know Mac has some games, but not anything compared to windows).
Office is the true killer.
Games are pretty much there for linux, reasonable stress about anti-cheat aside; but the network effects of Microsoft office are the real poison pill.
The irony of course is that if it wasn’t for games you could have a good time using office on MacOS with their cut down versions: but no such version exists for Linux and FreeBSD.
Since its purely network effects, I’ve taken to trying to promote Google Docs usage; since their tools anywhere with a modern browser, which is practically every modern desktop environment.
I know its pushing another US tech giant, but somehow the network effects are less egregious.
I don't play video games much, so maybe it's law of small numbers, but recently putting Linux on my spare PC, I didn't get how people say it's fine for games now. Proton didn't work right for my one Steam game BeamNG, and Gamecube controllers had unfixable input lag for Dolphin (Slippi). Nvidia GPU + Intel integrated spelled trouble for Xorg to the point where I had to change to Ubuntu just to have Wayland, and that worked.
On top of the game stuff, this PC is under my TV, so I kinda wanted a way to remote in. VNC is surprisingly jank, and Chrome Remote Desktop somehow never worked. So combined with 0/2 of my games working, I just gave up and went back to Win10.
Interesting; I haven't played BeamNG but it looks like it should work according to the ProtonDB https://www.protondb.com/app/284160. Sample size of one, but I haven't really had any issues with Proton on Linux, particularly within the "SteamOS" tenfoot interface. I don't play online games, and admittedly most of my games are several years old, so I can't tell you how well modern games play (though a friend of mine didn't appear to have too much trouble getting Pacific Drive working on full blast).
Not trying to diminish your struggle, and if it didn't work for you then obviously you shouldn't use it.
I don't own a Gamecube controller anymore, but I haven't noticed much lag with a wireless Switch Pro controller with Dolphin. I played through Tony Hawk's Underground and Tony Hawk's American wasteland on my laptop a few months ago using Dolphin, and as far as I could tell my terrible scores had nothing to do with lag, and I was able to finish them.
Definitely have had issues with Nvidia drivers though. It cost me an entire weekend getting one working a few months ago and I didn't enjoy that process.
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> but recently putting Linux on my spare PC, I didn't get how people say it's fine for games now.
It is because there are way more games that work than games that do not work at all. Also in general the "golden path" is really an all AMD PC (since that is where most of the testing and open development goes).
That said sometimes you may need to tinker/tweak things but this applies to Windows too, hence the existence of pcgamingwiki (which recently has added Linux info, though that is still dwarfed by the Windows info). I've been gaming on Linux for a few years now and was gaming on Windows before that and i do not find Linux any worse at all when it comes to getting stuff working (this was certainly not the case before ~2021 or so though).
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BeamNG runs just fine for me, it sounds like you're trying to play on a potato laptop... it needs a 16gb video card bare minimum.
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The web versions of Office tools are pretty good these days. There’s a few missing features, but you can get by mostly. I don’t think my company even gives licenses for desktop office by default any more.
I get why you'd say the web versions are "pretty good" for most people, and I agree they've improved, but I think that's only true if you're doing basic stuff. The moment you hit a complex corporate or academic document, the web version of Office falls apart. It's materially worse than even LibreOffice when you consider a power user's reality.
The real killer is Excel. The web version has zero support for crucial tools like Power Query or Power Pivot, which are essential for any modern data analysis. You can't run, edit, or even create serious VBA/Macros, and advanced data validation and conditional formatting are stripped down to the bone.
For Word, if you're in law or academia, forget it. Features like Table of Authorities or Table of Figures are either completely missing or so simplified they are useless. Even the ability to handle standard APA or MLA citation styles is heavily cut down compared to the desktop app.
And for PowerPoint? You lose access to serious third party add-ins, and the granular control over animations and timers that professionals need just isn't there.
So, while the web version might be fine for a quick edit of a simple file, if you need to reliably work with a complex document from a Windows-based company, the compatibility issues and missing features will force you into a desktop app eventually. If you're going to be forced into a desktop experience anyway, you might as well bite the bullet and go LibreOffice for its feature completeness on Linux/FreeBSD.
It's a stronger bet than relying on Microsoft's cut-down web versions.
I don't use office stuff much. What office components are available in Microsoft Office that aren't available on Linux?
I also try to avoid google wherever possible.
Office and the entire Office 365 ecosystem is the true killer. Microsoft is so entrenched in enterprise it's almost scary. And they're still trying very hard to wedge themselves in with their AI offerings.
I was completely unsuccessful in getting Microsoft Office to run natively with Wine in Linux. Like I wasn't even able to get past the installer for any version of Office later than 2007. Of course the web version works well enough, but in my case, I don't think I will ever be able to convince my parents to move to Linux if I cannot get proper Microsoft Office working on there. I am quite confident that they will not be happy with Kaligra or LibreOffice or OpenOffice or OnlyOffice or anything other than the Microsoft-branded Office.
In fairness to them, they've been using Windows and Office a lot in the last ~30 years, so asking them to abandon all that stuff isn't a trivial endeavor, but my point is that
Clients are going to send you Office documents, spreadsheets, etc.
Maybe you'll luck out and get something cross-platform or online, but 90% of the time if a client is sending a document, it's going to be something from Office (or rarely, Pages).
Spreadsheets can run scripts, and important ones you need to be able to run accurately, and not just hope your alternative office suite works.
I hate it, but it is what it is.
Excel
Gaming on Linux is there, if you don't mind the 10-40 fps drop in most modern and demanding games...
For me that's a no go.
I can live with bash in a WSL2 though... That's about what I need of Linux anyway. I can enjoy my gaming and the remaining of the userland too.
Best of both worlds.
What you’re saying doesn’t align with what PC reviewers are stating outright though.
The Legion GO being the most prime example[0].
Some games work better on Linux, some worse, but largely comparable[1].
I don’t believe that reviewers are paid to promote this view.
[0]: https://youtu.be/CJXp3UYj50Q?si=QWx6DRTQqzXnwfPL
[1]: https://www.noobfeed.com/articles/steamos-vs-windows-10-pc-b...
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I haven't used Office since 2005, the only exception at Uni collaboration with some Latex allergic folks. Onlyoffice just works for .docx the last 2 years for me when I needed it.
Right there with you. The crazy thing is that with the way MS is moving Office away from native towards garbage React, they're facilitation moving away from Windows.
I believe this is defensive to protect Office and their online services from Apple. They need Office to be a first-class citizen on Mac.
It used to be so first class that Excel 1.0 was only available for the Mac.
There’s one major benefit to separating your gaming and work machines, if you aren’t also using a lot of graphics horsepower for work[0]: NVidia and AMD graphics cards tend to ~double major problems on a machine (or halve system stability, to put it another way). This was even true of Macs, back when they were on x86.
Now, this won’t help if you play a lot of new games at launch (and aren’t ok playing them on a console instead of PC) or lots of multiplayer games with heavy-handed anti-cheat, but otherwise, Linux as a gaming OS has become pretty damn viable lately. Windows hasn’t been for anything but gaming for me since somewhere around the turn of the millennium, and I’ve just finally been able to ditch it completely. Which is really nice.
What I’m getting at is all-Linux (if you have more tolerance for Linux on the Desktop jank than I do) or Mac-for-work, Linux-for-play are now both non-terrible combos for having gaming available, and unless you need Nvidia or AMD graphics on your work machine (in which case, sure, may as well share that hardware for both roles), there are real benefits to work-system stability you can get by separating those.
(I do agree with you that running Linux under virtualization on either Windows or Mac is the only non-crazy-making and/or non-professionally-embarrassing way to work in Linux on a laptop, and I write that as someone who did run Linux on a laptop as my primary serious OS for most of a decade)
[0] nb. depending on what “a lot” means, Apple Silicon with a lot of system memory might still be a really good option.
I understand your reasoning. Personally I love living in my Mac, I’m much happier than I would be under Windows.
You’re 100% right for gaming. But I’ve solved that by being a console person. I already mostly was. I’m much prefer the appliance like nature and many of the kinds of games that show up there.
If I still wanted to play more “PC style“ games or just indie things that aren’t available on the consoles I would have a spare Windows machine just for that.
I was already enjoying VMware Workstation and Virtual Box, depending on private vs corporate laptop, since returning to Windows as main on with Windows 7.
What WSL has brought is that now it is one thing less to install.
However what got me started with Linux back in 1995, was the not so great support of POSIX in Windows NT.
Had Microsoft kept selling Xenix, or done Windows NT POSIX subsystem property, Linux would most likely never taken off.
Quite ironic given how Bill Gates used to talk about Xenix taking over.
Microsoft gave up on Xenix/Unix when AT&T took interest in a commercial Unix and exerting influence/control over the direction of Unix.
Microsoft didn't see a profitable future in following AT&T.
See UNIX World magazine from 1985, the Bill Gates interview on the future of Xenix.
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> What WSL has brought is that now it is one thing less to install.
How? You still have to install WSL, it's not on the machine out of the box, although if it's really just about not installing things, you might use Hyper-V, that may already be installed.
Hyper-V is required for the Windows 10 security improvements regarding kernel and drivers sandboxing, and even more so on Windows 11.
Enabling WSL isn't the same as going through VMWare Workstation or Virtual Box installation, and naturally paying for the commercial features.