Comment by lxgr
4 months ago
> a dropdown list of acceptable documents: a lease agreement, rates notice, tax document, utilities bill, or telecommunications bill.
It’s baffling to me that these types of (usually unsigned in both the electronic and the ink way, not that the latter would prove anything in a scan) PDFs are still somehow the gold standard for “proofs” of address.
In many countries worldwide that's the reasonable best option. A scan of a physically signed piece of paper is no better, anyone could've signed it. So long as there is no global standard for digitally signed documents, that's what we're stuck with, no?
While you can always outright commit fraud, there are many jurisdictions where there are decently strong forms of proof that go beyond a letter.
Things like tax numbers with addresses associated to them, official address registers... hell, a lot of ID cards in many jurisdictions just have your address printed on it!
Now, again, fraud is possible, but "I registered my drivers license to a fake address" is a bit of a higher hurdle than "I edited my utility PDF to show the right address".
Though there's a bit of a blessing in things like PDFs being easily editable, in that many badly organized criminals will likely do it haphazardly, leading to messy metadata, or even more amateur hour stuff around just having the font be wrong or the like. More opportunities for a fraudster to trip up, so to speak.
In countries where you do have e.g. tax numbers associated with addresses no government agency is going to give it to a random private company. I've lived in many countries both in the EU and outside of it and I can think of only a few countries where you actually could do something better than a pdf — and they use digital signatures.
9 replies →
Does it necessarily need to be a global standard? Just starting with the ones that do have a digital signature infrastructure would be something. The EU has eIDAS, which already covers 27 countries, for example.
Yes, I've edited a pdf before before sending to get though bureaucracy. Not to lie of course, but to get around some BS requirement or hide sensitive information. Was libreoffice draw? or inkscape or something, then you can delete the metadata too from a cli in linux.
The OP doesn't know this but the first rep. just gave him the blueprint on how to "preserve" and "stamp-approve" his account regardless of whether he has a legitimate business or not. He just needed to get "that" paper and move on. It is a process of document collection not a real verification for business purposes.
> It is a process of document collection not a real verification for business purposes.
I wish we could as a society move on from rituals paying tribute to what used to be an authentication method, towards one that actually constitutes one today.
For more serious stuff in AU there is Justice of the Peace (basically a qualified volunteer but not necessarily a lawyer) who can certify the copy. This can then be scanned and has the JP stamp and signature. Sort of handy as it is a distributed network, so you dont need to queue at a post office and get someone to eye up your docs and fill in a form.
In the US (for financial things) that's called a medallion guarantee and you can walk into a bank and get them to authenticate it.
For other things there are notaries public.
Walk into a bank is no longer possible in Finland, regardless of the purpose.
Most branch offices have been closed. The bigger part of the remaining ones are appointment only and getting an appointment can take weeks.
Very few offer cash and similar day to day services without appointment, but only very short hours. People who cannot use cards or the internet will queue in the street.
So like the modern challengers, traditional banks just offer no customer service deserving the name.
1 reply →
> [...] who can certify the copy. This can then be scanned [...]
Seems like you're back to square one: Having to trust a scan of an authentic document.
Though not any telco bill, it has to be a landline. Otherwise you could spin up a mobile contract and it would be easy. If you're a single person company/consultant they'll accept a personal bank statement (having just gone through this runaround myself).
That's even more absurd. What if I don't have a landline, or somebody else in my household is paying for it?
It seems to be for offices where you'd have a lease agreement. But even my accountant's letter was refused as not proof enough. I believe you can have HMRC send something, but they're not exactly quick and Wise wanted something more urgently. The strange thing is they didn't ask until months after the account was set up and had already approved proof of incorporation for the registered address.