Comment by daveoc64
3 days ago
>I had no idea travel was this difficult for people who aren't EU citizens.
Most people can't afford to travel to the Schengen Area for more than the visa-free limit of 90 days within a 180 day period.
Those that can are "digital nomads" and are almost certainly working illegally while travelling.
Most of those work restrictions are put in place to protect local labor. They just don't want tourists taking jobs from locals in tourist places without a permit, and without paying taxes. They really don't care much you're doing remote work for a corporation in California or writing a book.
> They really don't care much you're doing remote work for a corporation in California or writing a book.
They do, actually.
It’s for collecting taxes, which supports local infrastructure.
Going to another country, living within their infrastructure and consuming their services, but pretending that you’re not working (and therefore not paying local taxes) is something they don’t want.
Digital nomads who abuse the situation like it because they get the benefits of a country (and city, region, etc) without having to contribute to their taxes. Getting California level pay, not paying taxes, and living in what’s basically a vacation destination is the digital nomad dream.
This is not the full picture, as you surely know.
Remote workers from rich countries do pay tax locally, in the form of VAT and sales taxes. And they typically spend far more than locals, on food to accommodation and everything in between, all while requiring nothing of the local welfare state. It's a direct wealth transfer of thousands per month, earned in one economy and spent in another. In purely economic terms, it's hard to see how this is anything but a good deal for the host country, in the large majority of cases. Hence digital nomad visas.
This is not to say that countries - and societies - don't have the right to allow or deny access to foreigners as they see fit.
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Countries usually like tourism, don't they? But tourists are also living there and consuming services with no income tax. What's the difference?
One thing to note is that even if you're not paying income tax there, you're bringing tons of money into the country from outside. So that's worth something.
They don’t care too much as long as you don’t qualify for / consume social benefits like medical.
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Then they should change the laws to match. I've heard this time and time again. All the digital nomads I know are dodging taxes.
Immigration permission to work legally and tax compliance for the earnings are two completely different topics in probably all countries.
Even mostly law-abiding citizens with full work permission often dodge taxes in certain sectors of the economy - a common US example is restaurant workers underreporting cash tips on their tax returns. Plus, in addition to digital nomads, many freelancers (certainly not all) play as fast and loose with the tax rules even in their home countries as they think they can get away with. And much cross-border employment is disguised as independent contracting in ways that dodge employers’ tax burdens even when the employee has full work permission.
Conversely, there are already cases where even income earned illegally by visiting foreigners can legally be exempt from a country’s taxes. Example: Income earned in Canada by a US resident can qualify for Canada-US tax treaty’s exemption from Canadian taxation if the criteria listed in the treaty are met, regardless of whether the work was legal for immigration purposes. (Canada is actually one of the few countries from which foreign tourists can often legally work remotely for employers or clients abroad, but that depends on a lot of factors, and it can also be illegal like in most countries.)
The number of people affected (in principal that is, even fewer in practice) is likely so small that the political time involved would not be justified.
Last time I looked was a few years ago, but I was surprised how hard it was going to be to legally live in France while keeping my US tech job. My employer was happy to do what they had to to make it happen, but there just didn't seem to be a route in the French immigration system.
The options seemed to be:
- Get a job in France and get a work visa. This is very difficult due to economic protectionism.
- Come on a tourist visa and not work.
- Be provably independently wealthy and get some variety of golden visa. This meant proving that you had enough assets to live (lavishly I might add) long term without working.
No easy option for "I want to come to your country, get paid USD by a US company, but pay taxes to you!"
I think there have been some new developments regarding digital nomad visas since then. Still, seemed crazy given what a good arrangement it would have been for France.
It doesn't exist, because it's complex to set up and up until 5 years ago almost no one wanted to do this. Now some people want to do it, and they can use an Employer of Record via facilitating companies. But the visa situation will probably still be difficult, it's pretty much a gap
Illegally = like smoking weed in Amsterdam
Except few countries, all EU countries tolerate this
Although the EES biometric system that just got added is intended to crack down on this
Despite being required to, most crossings I did recently did not use it, though
I think it is more for overstays. Years ago when I asked about my stayed days ( I was traveling a lot ) , border guard took passport and tried to count then gave up
Indeed, the author describes a lifestyle I can hardly imagine, and then markets a product motivated by the resulting use cases.
> Most people can't afford to travel to the Schengen Area for more than the visa-free limit of 90 days within a 180 day period.
> Those that can are "digital nomads" and are almost certainly working illegally while travelling.
WTF are you talking about? The Schengen Area is right here and you don't need a visa to work anywhere else in it. That's the whole point.
If you are an EU citizen (or a citizen of one of the other Schengen Area countries) then yes, you have freedom of movement and can live and work anywhere in the area without a visa.
But the article isn't talking about being an EU Citizen. It's talking about having to count how many days have been spent in the Schengen Area by a third-country national.
Citizens of certain other countries (e.g. the USA or UK) can enter the Schengen Area visa-free for tourism or limited work-related activities (for up to 90 days in a 180 day period), but are not allowed to just do whatever work they want to.
Note that the comment I replied to was talking about non-EU Citizens.
If you don't live in the EU the rules are different. They often don't care but the rules are there. (I've been sent through the EU citizen line with my US passport which is normally fine but my coworkers on a multi year work in the EU visa have to be more careful about the right stamps - though I'm not sure exactly what this means)
They're talking about people from outside the EU presumably.